2 Oct
2014
2 Oct
'14
11:04 a.m.
Hi.
I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :)
She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the current page, so in the
current location, instead of the "black bar that gives the impression of
not beeing a part of that page" (that she did not manage to find by
herself).
I then explained that the buttons inside the page only concern the actions
that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a new page should be put in
an other location. She did not like this logic :)
Users' logic and developer's logic are not the same. I like the current
location too, except that we should propose "create page" before "create
wiki".
I really would like to have some feedback of normal users, with the 2
proposals. We, as developers, are not good at making things that look
simple for other people, so we should not take this decision alone.
Thanks,
--
Guillaume Delhumeau (gdelhumeau(a)xwiki.com)
Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
Committer on the XWiki.org project
2 Oct
2 Oct
11:47 a.m.
On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau
(gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
Hi.
I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :)
She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the current page, so in the
current location, instead of the "black bar that gives the impression of
not beeing a part of that page" (that she did not manage to find by
herself).
I then explained that the buttons inside the page only concern the actions
that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a new page should be put in
an other location. She did not like this logic :)
So with this logic we should remove the top bar completely and move all actions inside the
page, i.e. have only 1 menu inside the page. Because if she couldn’t find the Add button
there she also wouldn’t be able to find all wiki-related actions, space-related actions
and more importantly **page-related** actions like copy page, rename page or delete page…
Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using Confluence and see if she fails to create
a page there too.
Thanks
-Vincent
Users' logic and developer's logic are not the
same. I like the current
location too, except that we should propose "create page" before "create
wiki".
I really would like to have some feedback of normal users, with the 2
proposals. We, as developers, are not good at making things that look
simple for other people, so we should not take this decision alone.
Thanks,
--
Guillaume Delhumeau
1:30 p.m.
On that note:
The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing all this discussion on
the fact that some users did not find the "Add" button *only the first
time* they tried to do something. The realization is that this is one of
those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn once and know how to easily do
the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
The real problem appears when you are in those "next 1000x time" and you
find it cumbersome to use (like riding a bike with no saddle, or with the
saddle on backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or middle of the page) once
you find it once, you will find it again, however in the middle of the page
it conflicts too often with the Edit button and other page related actions,
that it becomes cumbersome to use.
Thanks,
Eduard
----------
[1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
[2] https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net <vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau (
gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
Hi.
I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :)
She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the current page, so in
the
current location, instead of the "black bar
that gives the impression of
not beeing a part of that page" (that she did not manage to find by
herself).
I then explained that the buttons inside the page only concern the
actions
that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a
new page should be put
in
an other location. She did not like this logic :)
So with this logic we should remove the top bar completely and move all
actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu inside the page. Because if
she couldn’t find the Add button there she also wouldn’t be able to find
all wiki-related actions, space-related actions and more importantly
**page-related** actions like copy page, rename page or delete page…
Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using Confluence and see if she
fails to create a page there too.
Thanks
-Vincent
Users' logic and developer's logic are
not the same. I like the current
location too, except that we should propose "create page" before "create
wiki".
I really would like to have some feedback of normal users, with the 2
proposals. We, as developers, are not good at making things that look
simple for other people, so we should not take this decision alone.
Thanks,
--
Guillaume Delhumeau
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
1:48 p.m.
On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru
(enygma2002@gmail.com(mailto:enygma2002@gmail.com)) wrote:
On that note:
The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing all this discussion on
the fact that some users did not find the "Add" button *only the first
time* they tried to do something. The realization is that this is one of
those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn once and know how to easily do
the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
The real problem appears when you are in those "next 1000x time" and you
find it cumbersome to use (like riding a bike with no saddle, or with the
saddle on backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or middle of the page) once
you find it once, you will find it again, however in the middle of the page
it conflicts too often with the Edit button and other page related actions,
that it becomes cumbersome to use.
Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just ask to add a page and that’s all
then you’re not doing a full test. You’d need to ask the user to:
- add a page
- delete a page
- move a page
- create a space
- etc
And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
Thanks
-Vincent
Thanks,
Eduard
----------
[1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
[2] https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
wrote:
On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau (
gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs Hi.
I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :)
She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the current page, so in
the
current location, instead of the "black bar
that gives the impression of
not beeing a part of that page" (that she did not manage to find by
herself).
I then explained that the buttons inside the page only concern the
actions
that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a
new page should be put
in
an other location. She did not like this logic :)
So with this logic we should remove the top bar completely and move all
actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu inside the page. Because if
she couldn’t find the Add button there she also wouldn’t be able to find
all wiki-related actions, space-related actions and more importantly
**page-related** actions like copy page, rename page or delete page…
Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using Confluence and see if she
fails to create a page there too.
Thanks
-Vincent
Users' logic and developer's logic are
not the same. I like the current
location too, except that we should propose "create page" before "create
wiki".
I really would like to have some feedback of normal users, with the 2
proposals. We, as developers, are not good at making things that look
simple for other people, so we should not take this decision alone.
Thanks,
--
Guillaume Delhumeau
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
6:59 p.m.
Hi,
actually one thing we could try is this:
- *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for page-related
actions:*
- "Add child page"
- "Add comment" (as suggested by Denis)
- "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis)
- *Add a "Create" button in the top bar, with 2/3 options:*
- "Create page" (TBD)
- "Create space"
- "Create wiki"
- In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would be presented with
a page / modal box listing existing instances as well as available templates
I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent actions in
the same location as a more-frequent one, not being in the right place on
the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the "Add" button is easy to find
where it is right now, why move it?).
WDYT?
Guillaume
ᐧ
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net <vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com(mailto:
enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
On that note:
The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing all this discussion
on
the fact that some users did not find the
"Add" button *only the first
time* they tried to do something. The realization is that this is one of
those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn once and know how to easily do
the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
The real problem appears when you are in those "next 1000x time" and you
find it cumbersome to use (like riding a bike with no saddle, or with the
saddle on backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or middle of the page)
once
you find it once, you will find it again, however
in the middle of the
page
it conflicts too often with the Edit button and
other page related
actions,
that it becomes cumbersome to use.
Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just ask to add a page
and that’s all then you’re not doing a full test. You’d need to ask the
user to:
- add a page
- delete a page
- move a page
- create a space
- etc
And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
Thanks
-Vincent
Thanks,
Eduard
----------
[1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
[2]
https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
wrote:
>
>
> On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau (
> gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
>
> > Hi.
> >
> > I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :)
> >
> > She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the current page, so
in
> the
> > current location, instead of the "black bar that gives the
impression of
> > not beeing a part of that page"
(that she did not manage to find by
> > herself).
> >
> > I then explained that the buttons inside the page only concern the
> actions
> > that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a new page should be
put
> in
> > an other location. She did not like this logic :)
>
> So with this logic we should remove the top bar completely and move all
> actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu inside the page.
Because if
> she couldn’t find the Add button there she
also wouldn’t be able to
find
> all wiki-related actions, space-related
actions and more importantly
> **page-related** actions like copy page, rename page or delete page…
>
> Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using Confluence and see if
she
> fails to create a page there too.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > Users' logic and developer's logic are not the same. I like the
current
> > location too, except that we should
propose "create page" before
"create
> > wiki".
> >
> > I really would like to have some feedback of normal users, with the 2
> > proposals. We, as developers, are not good at making things that look
> > simple for other people, so we should not take this decision alone.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > --
> > Guillaume Delhumeau
7:09 p.m.
Hi,
I've created this proposal
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation
Please read it and give your opinion on it. The proposal is based on
discussed solution, but improves a bit the styling.
If you are curious how I reached some of the proposal's conclusions, you
can see it's iterations
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIter…
Thanks,
Caty
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
Hi,
actually one thing we could try is this:
- *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for page-related
actions:*
- "Add child page"
- "Add comment" (as suggested by Denis)
- "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis)
- *Add a "Create" button in the top bar, with 2/3 options:*
- "Create page" (TBD)
- "Create space"
- "Create wiki"
- In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would be presented with
a page / modal box listing existing instances as well as available
templates
I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent actions in
the same location as a more-frequent one, not being in the right place on
the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the "Add" button is easy to find
where it is right now, why move it?).
WDYT?
Guillaume
ᐧ
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net <vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
all
the
2
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com(mailto:
enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> On that note:
> The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing all this
discussion
on
> the fact that some users did not find the "Add" button *only the first
> time* they tried to do something. The realization is that this is one
of
> those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn
once and know how to easily
do
> the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
>
> The real problem appears when you are in those "next 1000x time" and
you
> find it cumbersome to use (like riding a
bike with no saddle, or with
the
saddle on
backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or middle of the page)
once
you find it once, you will find it again, however
in the middle of the
page
it conflicts too often with the Edit button and
other page related
actions,
that it becomes cumbersome to use.
Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just ask to add a page
and that’s all then you’re not doing a full test. You’d need to ask the
user to:
- add a page
- delete a page
- move a page
- create a space
- etc
And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
Thanks
-Vincent
Thanks,
Eduard
----------
[1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
[2]
https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
wrote:
>
>
> On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau (
> gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
>
> > Hi.
> >
> > I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :)
> >
> > She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the current page, so
in
> the
> > current location, instead of the "black bar that gives the
impression of
> > not beeing a part of that page"
(that she did not manage to find by
> > herself).
> >
> > I then explained that the buttons inside the page only concern the
> actions
> > that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a new page should be
put
> > in
> > > an other location. She did not like this logic :)
> >
> > So with this logic we should remove the top bar completely and move >
actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu inside the page.
Because if
> she couldn’t find the Add button there she
also wouldn’t be able to
find
> all wiki-related actions, space-related
actions and more importantly
> **page-related** actions like copy page, rename page or delete page…
>
> Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using Confluence and see if
she
> fails to create a page there too.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > Users' logic and developer's logic are not the same. I like the
current
> > location too, except that we should
propose "create page" before
"create
> > > wiki".
> > >
> > > I really would like to have some feedback of normal users, with > > > proposals. We, as developers, are
not good at making things that
look
> >
simple for other people, so we should not take this decision alone.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > --
> > Guillaume Delhumeau
7:23 p.m.
Hi Caty,
On 2 Oct 2014 at 19:10:24, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
(valicac@gmail.com(mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
Hi,
I've created this proposal
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation
Please read it and give your opinion on it. The proposal is based on
discussed solution, but improves a bit the styling.
Thanks for working on this!
* I like your idea in Var 3 for the search bar and making it a bit less visible
* I find the Add button not visible enough in the the top bar with var 3 and I prefer the
var 2 for it. Specifically I prefer the full text “Add” (or “Create”) and the different
color to make it more visible since it’s important for the user to find easily how to add
new content in a wiki.
Thanks
-Vincent
If you are curious how I reached some of the
proposal's conclusions, you
can see it's iterations
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIter…
Thanks,
Caty
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
wrote:
Hi,
actually one thing we could try is this:
- *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for page-related
actions:*
- "Add child page"
- "Add comment" (as suggested by Denis)
- "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis)
- *Add a "Create" button in the top bar, with 2/3 options:*
- "Create page" (TBD)
- "Create space"
- "Create wiki"
- In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would be presented with
a page / modal box listing existing instances as well as available
templates
I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent actions in
the same location as a more-frequent one, not being in the right place on
the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the "Add" button is easy to find
where it is right now, why move it?).
WDYT?
Guillaume
ᐧ
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
wrote:
all
the
2
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com(mailto:
enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> On that note:
> The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing all this
discussion
on
> the fact that some users did not find the "Add" button *only the first
> time* they tried to do something. The realization is that this is one
of
> those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn
once and know how to easily
do
> the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
>
> The real problem appears when you are in those "next 1000x time" and
you
> find it cumbersome to use (like riding a
bike with no saddle, or with
the
saddle on
backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or middle of the page)
once
you find it once, you will find it again, however
in the middle of the
page
it conflicts too often with the Edit button and
other page related
actions,
that it becomes cumbersome to use.
Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just ask to add a page
and that’s all then you’re not doing a full test. You’d need to ask the
user to:
- add a page
- delete a page
- move a page
- create a space
- etc
And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
Thanks
-Vincent
Thanks,
Eduard
----------
[1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
[2]
https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
wrote:
>
>
> On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau (
> gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
>
> > Hi.
> >
> > I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :)
> >
> > She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the current page, so
in
> the
> > current location, instead of the "black bar that gives the
impression of
> > not beeing a part of that page"
(that she did not manage to find by
> > herself).
> >
> > I then explained that the buttons inside the page only concern the
> actions
> > that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a new page should be
put
> > in
> > > an other location. She did not like this logic :)
> >
> > So with this logic we should remove the top bar completely and move >
actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu inside the page.
Because if
> she couldn’t find the Add button there she
also wouldn’t be able to
find
> all wiki-related actions, space-related
actions and more importantly
> **page-related** actions like copy page, rename page or delete page…
>
> Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using Confluence and see if
she
> fails to create a page there too.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > Users' logic and developer's logic are not the same. I like the
current
> > location too, except that we should
propose "create page" before
"create
> > > wiki".
> > >
> > > I really would like to have some feedback of normal users, with > > > proposals. We, as developers, are
not good at making things that
look
> >
simple for other people, so we should not take this decision alone.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > --
> > Guillaume Delhumeau
9:04 p.m.
Hi,
Le 2 oct. 2014 19:24, "vincent(a)massol.net" <vincent(a)massol.net> a écrit :
visible
I like it visually, even if I'm not really sure to understand why search
bar should be less visible...
I think 90% of my users use the search to find information, and maybe 10%
add content. You could say it's because of current visibility of those
features, but I'm not sure at all.
Apart from that , I hope search icon interactions in flamingo would be
better than in sample site linked, which is not so good: search icon is too
small, and search bar appearance animation is too slow (HTC m8 + chrome)
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hi Caty,
On 2 Oct 2014 at 19:10:24, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (valicac(a)gmail.com
(mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
Hi,
I've created this proposal
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation
Please read it and give your opinion on it. The proposal is based on
discussed solution, but improves a bit the styling.
Thanks for working on this!
* I like your idea in Var 3 for the search bar and making it a bit less * I find the Add button not visible enough in the the
top bar with var 3
and I prefer the var 2 for it.
From xwiki.org logo, if I take the funny 'X' of
Xwiki, and I rotate it 45°,
I get a funny '+' sign with an Xwiki touch. If I
paint the '+' in green,
maybe I get a nice add menu with an xwiki touch, WDYT ? ;-)
Specifically I prefer the full text “Add” (or “Create”) and the different
color to make it more visible since it’s important for the user to find
easily how to add new content in a wiki.
Thanks
-Vincent
> If you are curious how I reached some of the proposal's conclusions, you
> can see it's iterations
>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIter…
>
> Thanks,
> Caty
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > actually one thing we could try is this:
> >
> > - *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for page-related
> > actions:*
> > - "Add child page"
> > - "Add comment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > - "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis)
> >
> >
> > - *Add a "Create" button in the top bar, with 2/3 options:*
> > - "Create page" (TBD)
> > - "Create space"
> > - "Create wiki"
> > - In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would be presented
with
> > a page / modal box listing existing
instances as well as available
> > templates
> >
> > I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent actions
in
> > the same location as a more-frequent one,
not being in the right
place on
> > the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue
(the "Add" button is easy to
find
> > where it is right now, why move it?).
> >
> > WDYT?
> >
> > Guillaume
> > ᐧ
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com
(mailto:
> > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> > >
> > > > On that note:
> > > > The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing all this
> > discussion
> > > on
> > > > the fact that some users did not find the "Add" button
*only the
first
> > > > time* they tried to do something.
The realization is that this is
one
> > of
> > > > those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn once and know how to
easily
> > do
> > > > the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
> > > >
> > > > The real problem appears when you are in those "next 1000x
time"
and
> > you
> > > > find it cumbersome to use (like riding a bike with no saddle, or
with
> > the
> > > > saddle on backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or middle of the
page)
> > > once
> > > > you find it once, you will find it again, however in the middle
of the
> > > page
> > > > it conflicts too often with the Edit button and other page related
> > > actions,
> > > > that it becomes cumbersome to use.
> > >
> > > Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just ask to add a
page
> > > and that’s all then you’re not doing a
full test. You’d need to ask
the
> > > user to:
> > > - add a page
> > > - delete a page
> > > - move a page
> > > - create a space
> > > - etc
> > >
> > > And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > -Vincent
> > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Eduard
> > > >
> > > > ----------
> > > > [1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
> > > > [2]
> > >
https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau (
> > > > > gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the current
page, so
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > current location, instead of the "black bar that gives
the
> > > impression of
> > > > > > not beeing a part of that page" (that she did not
manage to
find by
> > > > > > herself).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I then explained that the buttons inside the page only
concern the
> > > > > actions
> > > > > > that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a new page
should be
> > > put
> > > > > in
> > > > > > an other location. She did not like this logic :)
> > > > >
> > > > > So with this logic we should remove the top bar completely and
move
> > all
> > > > > actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu inside the page.
> > > Because if
> > > > > she couldn’t find the Add button there she also wouldn’t be
able to
> > > find
> > > > > all wiki-related actions, space-related actions and more
importantly
> > > > > **page-related** actions like
copy page, rename page or delete
page…
> > > > >
> > > > > Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using Confluence and
see if
> > > she
> > > > > fails to create a page there too.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > > -Vincent
> > > > >
> > > > > > Users' logic and developer's logic are not the
same. I like
the
> > > current
> > > > > > location too, except that we should propose "create
page"
before
> > > "create
> > > > > > wiki".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I really would like to have some feedback of normal users,
with
> > the 2
> > > > > > proposals. We, as developers, are not good at making things
that
> > look
> > > > > > simple for other people, so we should not take this
decision
alone.
> >
>
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > --
> > > Guillaume Delhumeau
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
3 Oct
3 Oct
12:43 p.m.
Big +1 for Var3 for the simple fact that it looks like a "holistic"/global
approach that does not only focus on a specific element, like the "Add"
button and currently falls into the mistake of making it a bright shiny
beacon to misguided users, resulting in something that is overall
disturbing to the eye. Same can be said about the "Search" element, since
it now reduces the heavy contrast of both the search input (bright white on
dark background) and its search button (bright colored blue on dark
background).
About the Search button (re: Jeremie): Because it is the first element in
its group, it will show to the left and no other elements will be
disturbed, so the transition will be nice for users. Basically the expand
search button (the magnifying glass) becomes a button once you expand it,
so there should be no flicker or anything like that.
- As an alternative, if we really are against
transitions/animations/expandable elements/etc, we could just present the
search as directly expanded (classic way), but still keep the darker input
color to avoid the "kitch" effect described above due to high contrasts.
About the + (Add) button, IMO, the only thing we could do more if we really
want to emphasize it in an *elegant* fashion, would be to make the + sign
itself green, or with some green border, whatever. Whatever we do, we
should try to consider Caty's opinion on style here since she might have a
better eye and this proposal here seems to be towards that direction.
IMO, one very interesting thing to note is the extended (3.4) version and
long term view that we also need to take into account and, at least to me,
that looks really slick.
I think we should stick to the original intent of this Flamingo skin, with
the addition of Bootstrap's style, and keep it slick, minimalistic and to
the point. The users should focus more on the content instead of the UI,
don`t u think?
------
On a related note, If you ask me, I would be in favor of also removing the
labels from "Edit" and "More actions" and just go with the *all too
obvious* "pencil" and "cog" icons. GMail uses the "cog" icon
with 0
problems and I kind of trust that their UX army did their research and
impact studies for that :)
Also, on matters of "consistency" we would achieve the following statement:
"Actions have only icons, while entities have an icon and a label that
displays the entity's name".
- Actions: add, edit, search, more actions, etc.
- Entities (with dropdown menu for actions on the entries): wiki, space,
page, user.
------
Let's keep this skin clean and a pleasure to work on/with, WDYT?
Thanks,
Eduard
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <valicac(a)gmail.com
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've created this proposal
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation
> Please read it and give your opinion on it. The proposal is based on
> discussed solution, but improves a bit the styling.
>
> If you are curious how I reached some of the proposal's conclusions, you
> can see it's iterations
>
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIter…
>
> Thanks,
> Caty
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > actually one thing we could try is this:
> >
> > - *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for page-related
> > actions:*
> > - "Add child page"
> > - "Add comment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > - "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis)
> >
> >
> > - *Add a "Create" button in the top bar, with 2/3 options:*
> > - "Create page" (TBD)
> > - "Create space"
> > - "Create wiki"
> > - In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would be
presented
> with
> > a page / modal box listing existing instances as well as available
> > templates
> >
> > I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent actions in
> > the same location as a more-frequent one, not being in the right place on
> > the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the "Add" button is easy to
find
> > where it is right now, why move it?).
> >
> > WDYT?
> >
> > Guillaume
> > ᐧ
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net <vincent(a)massol.net>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com(mailto:
> > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> > >
> > > > On that note:
> > > > The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing all this
> > discussion
> > > on
> > > > the fact that some users did not find the "Add" button *only
the
> first
> > > > time* they tried to do something. The realization is that this is one
> > of
> > > > those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn once and know how to
> easily
> > do
> > > > the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
> > > >
> > > > The real problem appears when you are in those "next 1000x
time" and
> > you
> > > > find it cumbersome to use (like riding a bike with no saddle, or with
> > the
> > > > saddle on backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or middle of the
> page)
> > > once
> > > > you find it once, you will find it again, however in the middle of
> the
> > > page
> > > > it conflicts too often with the Edit button and other page related
> > > actions,
> > > > that it becomes cumbersome to use.
> > >
> > > Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just ask to add a
> page
> > > and that’s all then you’re not doing a full test. You’d need to ask the
> > > user to:
> > > - add a page
> > > - delete a page
> > > - move a page
> > > - create a space
> > > - etc
> > >
> > > And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > -Vincent
> > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Eduard
> > > >
> > > > ----------
> > > > [1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
> > > > [2]
> > > https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > > wrote:
> > >
>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau (
> > > > > gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the current
page,
> so
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > current location, instead of the "black bar that gives
the
> > > impression of
> > > > > > not beeing a part of that page" (that she did not
manage to find
> by
> > > > > > herself).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I then explained that the buttons inside the page only
concern
> the
> > > > > actions
> > > > > > that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a new page
should
> be
> > > put
> > > > > in
> > > > > > an other location. She did not like this logic :)
> > > > >
> > > > > So with this logic we should remove the top bar completely and
move
> > all
> > > > > actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu inside the page.
> > > Because if
> > > > > she couldn’t find the Add button there she also wouldn’t be able
to
> > > find
> > > > > all wiki-related actions, space-related actions and more
> importantly
> > > > > **page-related** actions like copy page, rename page or delete
> page…
> > > > >
> > > > > Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using Confluence and
see
> if
> > > she
> > > > > fails to create a page there too.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > > -Vincent
> > > > >
> > > > > > Users' logic and developer's logic are not the same.
I like the
> > > current
> > > > > > location too, except that we should propose "create
page" before
> > > "create
> > > > > > wiki".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I really would like to have some feedback of normal users,
with
> > the 2
> > > > > > proposals. We, as developers, are not good at making things
that
> > look
> > > > > > simple for other people, so we should not take this
decision
> alone.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Guillaume Delhumeau
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > devs(a)xwiki.org
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> devs(a)xwiki.org
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
1:04 p.m.
Hi,
Some notes about the proposal:
- I like the 'Add' represented as '+' and after the Wiki/Space/Page
breadcrumb, because is somehow consistent with the '+' (More applications)
from the AppBar. Provides a way to create elements of a particular type in
the near vicinity where the elements are displayed.
- Although I know there will be some initial findability issues for the
'Add', after the user founds it I don't think it will have problems finding
it again. We can improve the findability by finally providing an
Introductory Wizard. Except for the initial moments when you learn XWiki, I
don't see the point of having a very distinctive style for 'Add' and I
would prefer to go on the consistent/integrated with the other navbar
elements direction.
- The same comment about a distinctive style for 'Search'. IMO 'Search'
should look integrated in the .navbar.
- I dislike the idea of having multiple 'Add' buttons. Also the 'Add -
Comment to page' and 'Add - Attachment to page' are part of the Colibri
skin, but IMO were 'close to never' used. I remember a bug on them that
made them unusable and we discovered it after some years or something. Also
I don't think we should provide buttons for all the functionality we can
think of, but leave them be created from their context. I prefer having
buttons just for the generic and base concepts of XWiki (in the try of
keeping it minimal and simple).
- We are kind of going a bit too crazy about brainstorming and ideas. The
only conclusion we need to reach is if for Flamingo we move the button back
top.
Thanks,
Caty
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Big +1 for Var3 for the simple fact that it looks like
a "holistic"/global
approach that does not only focus on a specific element, like the "Add"
button and currently falls into the mistake of making it a bright shiny
beacon to misguided users, resulting in something that is overall
disturbing to the eye. Same can be said about the "Search" element, since
it now reduces the heavy contrast of both the search input (bright white on
dark background) and its search button (bright colored blue on dark
background).
About the Search button (re: Jeremie): Because it is the first element in
its group, it will show to the left and no other elements will be
disturbed, so the transition will be nice for users. Basically the expand
search button (the magnifying glass) becomes a button once you expand it,
so there should be no flicker or anything like that.
- As an alternative, if we really are against
transitions/animations/expandable elements/etc, we could just present the
search as directly expanded (classic way), but still keep the darker input
color to avoid the "kitch" effect described above due to high contrasts.
About the + (Add) button, IMO, the only thing we could do more if we really
want to emphasize it in an *elegant* fashion, would be to make the + sign
itself green, or with some green border, whatever. Whatever we do, we
should try to consider Caty's opinion on style here since she might have a
better eye and this proposal here seems to be towards that direction.
IMO, one very interesting thing to note is the extended (3.4) version and
long term view that we also need to take into account and, at least to me,
that looks really slick.
I think we should stick to the original intent of this Flamingo skin, with
the addition of Bootstrap's style, and keep it slick, minimalistic and to
the point. The users should focus more on the content instead of the UI,
don`t u think?
------
On a related note, If you ask me, I would be in favor of also removing the
labels from "Edit" and "More actions" and just go with the *all too
obvious* "pencil" and "cog" icons. GMail uses the "cog"
icon with 0
problems and I kind of trust that their UX army did their research and
impact studies for that :)
Also, on matters of "consistency" we would achieve the following statement:
"Actions have only icons, while entities have an icon and a label that
displays the entity's name".
- Actions: add, edit, search, more actions, etc.
- Entities (with dropdown menu for actions on the entries): wiki, space,
page, user.
------
Let's keep this skin clean and a pleasure to work on/with, WDYT?
Thanks,
Eduard
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
valicac(a)gmail.com
first
> > > time* they tried to do something. The realization is that this is
one
and
the
see
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
wrote:
Hi,
I've created this proposal
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation
Please read it and give your opinion on it. The proposal is based on
discussed solution, but improves a bit the styling.
If you are curious how I reached some of the proposal's conclusions, you
can see it's iterations
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIter…
>
> Thanks,
> Caty
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > actually one thing we could try is this:
> >
> > - *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for page-related
> > actions:*
> > - "Add child page"
> > - "Add comment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > - "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis)
> >
> >
> > - *Add a "Create" button in the top bar, with 2/3 options:*
> > - "Create page" (TBD)
> > - "Create space"
> > - "Create wiki"
> > - In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would be
presented
> with
> > a page / modal box listing existing instances as well as available
> > templates
> >
> > I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent actions
in
> the same location as a more-frequent one,
not being in the right place
on
> > the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the "Add" button is easy
to find
> > where it is right now, why move it?).
> >
> > WDYT?
> >
> > Guillaume
> > ᐧ
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net <vincent(a)massol.net
>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com
(mailto:
enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> On that note:
> The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing all this
discussion
> on
> > the fact that some users did not find the "Add" button *only the
of
> > those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn once and know how to
easily
> do
> > > the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
> > >
> > > The real problem appears when you are in those "next 1000x time"
> you
> > > find it cumbersome to use (like riding a bike with no saddle, or
with
the
> > saddle on backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or middle of the
page)
> once
> > you find it once, you will find it again, however in the middle of
the
> page
> > it conflicts too often with the Edit button and other page related
> actions,
> > that it becomes cumbersome to use.
>
> Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just ask to add a
page
> > and that’s all then you’re not doing a full test. You’d need to ask > > user to:
> > - add a page
> > - delete a page
> > - move a page
> > - create a space
> > - etc
> >
> > And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > [1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
> > > [2]
> >
https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau (
> > > > > gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the current
page,
so
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > current location, instead of the "black bar that gives the
> > impression of
> > > > > not beeing a part of that page" (that she did not manage to
find
by
should
> > > > herself).
> > > >
> > > > I then explained that the buttons inside the page only concern
the
> > > > actions
> > > > > that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a new page be
> > put
> > > > in
> > > > > an other location. She did not like this logic :)
> > > >
> > > > So with this logic we should remove the top bar completely and
move
> all
> > > > actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu inside the page.
> > Because if
> > > > she couldn’t find the Add button there she also wouldn’t be able
to
>
find
> > > all wiki-related actions, space-related actions and more
importantly
> > > **page-related** actions like copy
page, rename page or delete
page…
> > > >
> > > > Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using Confluence and if
> > she
> > > > fails to create a page there too.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Vincent
> > > >
> > > > > Users' logic and developer's logic are not the same. I
like the
> > current
> > > > > location too, except that we should propose "create
page"
before
> > "create
> > > > > wiki".
> > > > >
> > > > > I really would like to have some feedback of normal users, with
> the 2
> > > > > proposals. We, as developers, are not good at making things
that
look
> > > > simple for other people, so we should not take this decision
alone.
> >
>
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > --
> > > Guillaume Delhumeau
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
2:28 p.m.
On 3 Oct 2014 at 13:05:08, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
(valicac@gmail.com(mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
Hi,
Some notes about the proposal:
- I like the 'Add' represented as '+' and after the Wiki/Space/Page
breadcrumb, because is somehow consistent with the '+' (More applications)
from the AppBar. Provides a way to create elements of a particular type in
the near vicinity where the elements are displayed.
What I don’t like is that it’s the only menu entry at the top that wouldn’t have any text
(just an icon) and it’s one of the most important one.
I’d use a color (the green one looks fine to me to make it visible) for now for 6.2.2 and
maybe do some usability testing on various variations as you did for the other usability
tests, in order to gather more feedback and have more time to gather it.
- Although I know there will be some initial
findability issues for the
'Add', after the user founds it I don't think it will have problems finding
it again. We can improve the findability by finally providing an
Introductory Wizard. Except for the initial moments when you learn XWiki, I
don't see the point of having a very distinctive style for 'Add' and I
would prefer to go on the consistent/integrated with the other navbar
elements direction.
- The same comment about a distinctive style for 'Search'. IMO 'Search'
should look integrated in the .navbar.
- I dislike the idea of having multiple 'Add' buttons. Also the 'Add -
Comment to page' and 'Add - Attachment to page' are part of the Colibri
skin, but IMO were 'close to never' used. I remember a bug on them that
made them unusable and we discovered it after some years or something. Also
I don't think we should provide buttons for all the functionality we can
think of, but leave them be created from their context. I prefer having
buttons just for the generic and base concepts of XWiki (in the try of
keeping it minimal and simple).
- We are kind of going a bit too crazy about brainstorming and ideas. The
only conclusion we need to reach is if for Flamingo we move the button back
top.
Yes I agree completely with this. We shouldn’t mix everything right now or we won’t
progress.
The only other thing that we may want to have in 6.2.2 too is the removal of the 2
part-buttons at the top and the introduction of the “Go to…” for navigation.
The rest is fine to discuss and tune for 6.3+ IMO.
Thanks
-Vincent
Thanks,
Caty
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Eduard Moraru wrote:
> Big +1 for Var3 for the simple fact that it looks like a
"holistic"/global
> approach that does not only focus on a specific element, like the "Add"
> button and currently falls into the mistake of making it a bright shiny
> beacon to misguided users, resulting in something that is overall
> disturbing to the eye. Same can be said about the "Search" element, since
> it now reduces the heavy contrast of both the search input (bright white on
> dark background) and its search button (bright colored blue on dark
> background).
>
> About the Search button (re: Jeremie): Because it is the first element in
> its group, it will show to the left and no other elements will be
> disturbed, so the transition will be nice for users. Basically the expand
> search button (the magnifying glass) becomes a button once you expand it,
> so there should be no flicker or anything like that.
> - As an alternative, if we really are against
> transitions/animations/expandable elements/etc, we could just present the
> search as directly expanded (classic way), but still keep the darker input
> color to avoid the "kitch" effect described above due to high contrasts.
>
> About the + (Add) button, IMO, the only thing we could do more if we really
> want to emphasize it in an *elegant* fashion, would be to make the + sign
> itself green, or with some green border, whatever. Whatever we do, we
> should try to consider Caty's opinion on style here since she might have a
> better eye and this proposal here seems to be towards that direction.
>
> IMO, one very interesting thing to note is the extended (3.4) version and
> long term view that we also need to take into account and, at least to me,
> that looks really slick.
>
> I think we should stick to the original intent of this Flamingo skin, with
> the addition of Bootstrap's style, and keep it slick, minimalistic and to
> the point. The users should focus more on the content instead of the UI,
> don`t u think?
>
> ------
> On a related note, If you ask me, I would be in favor of also removing the
> labels from "Edit" and "More actions" and just go with the *all
too
> obvious* "pencil" and "cog" icons. GMail uses the
"cog" icon with 0
> problems and I kind of trust that their UX army did their research and
> impact studies for that :)
>
> Also, on matters of "consistency" we would achieve the following
statement:
> "Actions have only icons, while entities have an icon and a label that
> displays the entity's name".
> - Actions: add, edit, search, more actions, etc.
> - Entities (with dropdown menu for actions on the entries): wiki, space,
> page, user.
> ------
>
> Let's keep this skin clean and a pleasure to work on/with, WDYT?
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> valicac(a)gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I've created this proposal
> > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation
> > Please read it and give your opinion on it. The proposal is based on
> > discussed solution, but improves a bit the styling.
> >
> > If you are curious how I reached some of the proposal's conclusions, you
> > can see it's iterations
> >
> >
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIter…
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Caty
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > actually one thing we could try is this:
> > >
> > > - *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for
page-related
> > > actions:*
> > > - "Add child page"
> > > - "Add comment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > > - "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > >
> > >
> > > - *Add a "Create" button in the top bar, with 2/3 options:*
> > > - "Create page" (TBD)
> > > - "Create space"
> > > - "Create wiki"
> > > - In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would be
presented
> > with
> > > a page / modal box listing existing instances as well as available
> > > templates
> > >
> > > I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent actions
> in
> > > the same location as a more-frequent one, not being in the right place
> on
> > > the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the "Add" button is
easy to find
> > > where it is right now, why move it?).
> > >
> > > WDYT?
> > >
> > > Guillaume
> > > ᐧ
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net > > >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com
> (mailto:
> > > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On that note:
> > > > > The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing all this
> > > discussion
> > > > on
> > > > > the fact that some users did not find the "Add" button
*only the
> > first
> > > > > time* they tried to do something. The realization is that this
is
> one
> > > of
> > > > > those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn once and know how to
> > easily
> > > do
> > > > > the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
> > > > >
> > > > > The real problem appears when you are in those "next 1000x
time"
> and
> > > you
> > > > > find it cumbersome to use (like riding a bike with no saddle,
or
> with
> > > the
> > > > > saddle on backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or middle of
the
> > page)
> > > > once
> > > > > you find it once, you will find it again, however in the middle
of
> > the
> > > > page
> > > > > it conflicts too often with the Edit button and other page
related
> > > > actions,
> > > > > that it becomes cumbersome to use.
> > > >
> > > > Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just ask to add a
> > page
> > > > and that’s all then you’re not doing a full test. You’d need to ask
> the
> > > > user to:
> > > > - add a page
> > > > - delete a page
> > > > - move a page
> > > > - create a space
> > > > - etc
> > > >
> > > > And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Vincent
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Eduard
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------
> > > > > [1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
> > > > > [2]
> > > >
> https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau
(
> > > > > > gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the
current
> page,
> > so
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > current location, instead of the "black bar that
gives the
> > > > impression of
> > > > > > > not beeing a part of that page" (that she did not
manage to
> find
> > by
> > > > > > > herself).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I then explained that the buttons inside the page only
concern
> > the
> > > > > > actions
> > > > > > > that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a new
page
> should
> > be
> > > > put
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > an other location. She did not like this logic :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So with this logic we should remove the top bar completely
and
> move
> > > all
> > > > > > actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu inside the
page.
> > > > Because if
> > > > > > she couldn’t find the Add button there she also wouldn’t be
able
> to
> > > > find
> > > > > > all wiki-related actions, space-related actions and more
> > importantly
> > > > > > **page-related** actions like copy page, rename page or
delete
> > page…
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using Confluence
and
> see
> > if
> > > > she
> > > > > > fails to create a page there too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Users' logic and developer's logic are not the
same. I like the
> > > > current
> > > > > > > location too, except that we should propose
"create page"
> before
> > > > "create
> > > > > > > wiki".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I really would like to have some feedback of normal
users, with
> > > the 2
> > > > > > > proposals. We, as developers, are not good at making
things
> that
> > > look
> > > > > > > simple for other people, so we should not take this
decision
> > alone.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Guillaume Delhumeau
3:12 p.m.
HI Caty,
thanks for your work on this!
I tend to agree with Vincent on this: we could use Var 2 for XE 6.2.2 and
experiment with Var 3 for XE 6.3-6.4 based on the feedback we get.
ᐧ
Guillaume
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 2:28 PM, vincent(a)massol.net <vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
On 3 Oct 2014 at 13:05:08, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (valicac(a)gmail.com
(mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
Hi,
Some notes about the proposal:
- I like the 'Add' represented as '+' and after the Wiki/Space/Page
breadcrumb, because is somehow consistent with the '+' (More
applications)
from the AppBar. Provides a way to create
elements of a particular type
in
the near vicinity where the elements are
displayed.
What I don’t like is that it’s the only menu entry at the top that
wouldn’t have any text (just an icon) and it’s one of the most important
one.
I’d use a color (the green one looks fine to me to make it visible) for
now for 6.2.2 and maybe do some usability testing on various variations as
you did for the other usability tests, in order to gather more feedback and
have more time to gather it.
- Although I know there will be some initial
findability issues for the
'Add', after the user founds it I don't think it will have problems
finding
it again. We can improve the findability by
finally providing an
Introductory Wizard. Except for the initial moments when you learn
XWiki, I
don't see the point of having a very
distinctive style for 'Add' and I
would prefer to go on the consistent/integrated with the other navbar
elements direction.
- The same comment about a distinctive style for 'Search'. IMO 'Search'
should look integrated in the .navbar.
- I dislike the idea of having multiple 'Add' buttons. Also the 'Add -
Comment to page' and 'Add - Attachment to page' are part of the Colibri
skin, but IMO were 'close to never' used. I remember a bug on them that
made them unusable and we discovered it after some years or something.
Also
I don't think we should provide buttons for
all the functionality we can
think of, but leave them be created from their context. I prefer having
buttons just for the generic and base concepts of XWiki (in the try of
keeping it minimal and simple).
- We are kind of going a bit too crazy about brainstorming and ideas. The
only conclusion we need to reach is if for Flamingo we move the button
back
top.
Yes I agree completely with this. We shouldn’t mix everything right now or
we won’t progress.
The only other thing that we may want to have in 6.2.2 too is the removal
of the 2 part-buttons at the top and the introduction of the “Go to…” for
navigation.
The rest is fine to discuss and tune for 6.3+ IMO.
Thanks
-Vincent
Thanks,
Caty
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Eduard Moraru wrote:
> Big +1 for Var3 for the simple fact that it looks like a
"holistic"/global
> approach that does not only focus on a
specific element, like the "Add"
> button and currently falls into the mistake of making it a bright shiny
> beacon to misguided users, resulting in something that is overall
> disturbing to the eye. Same can be said about the "Search" element,
since
> it now reduces the heavy contrast of both
the search input (bright
white on
> dark background) and its search button
(bright colored blue on dark
> background).
>
> About the Search button (re: Jeremie): Because it is the first element
in
> its group, it will show to the left and no
other elements will be
> disturbed, so the transition will be nice for users. Basically the
expand
> search button (the magnifying glass) becomes
a button once you expand
it,
> so there should be no flicker or anything
like that.
> - As an alternative, if we really are against
> transitions/animations/expandable elements/etc, we could just present
the
> search as directly expanded (classic way),
but still keep the darker
input
> color to avoid the "kitch" effect
described above due to high
contrasts.
>
> About the + (Add) button, IMO, the only thing we could do more if we
really
> want to emphasize it in an *elegant*
fashion, would be to make the +
sign
> itself green, or with some green border,
whatever. Whatever we do, we
> should try to consider Caty's opinion on style here since she might
have
a
> better eye and this proposal here seems to
be towards that direction.
>
> IMO, one very interesting thing to note is the extended (3.4) version
and
> long term view that we also need to take
into account and, at least to
me,
> that looks really slick.
>
> I think we should stick to the original intent of this Flamingo skin,
with
> the addition of Bootstrap's style, and
keep it slick, minimalistic and
to
> the point. The users should focus more on
the content instead of the
UI,
> don`t u think?
>
> ------
> On a related note, If you ask me, I would be in favor of also removing
the
> labels from "Edit" and "More
actions" and just go with the *all too
> obvious* "pencil" and "cog" icons. GMail uses the
"cog" icon with 0
> problems and I kind of trust that their UX army did their research and
> impact studies for that :)
>
> Also, on matters of "consistency" we would achieve the following
statement:
> "Actions have only icons, while
entities have an icon and a label that
> displays the entity's name".
> - Actions: add, edit, search, more actions, etc.
> - Entities (with dropdown menu for actions on the entries): wiki,
space,
> page, user.
> ------
>
> Let's keep this skin clean and a pleasure to work on/with, WDYT?
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> valicac(a)gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I've created this proposal
> >
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation
> > Please read it and give your opinion on
it. The proposal is based on
> > discussed solution, but improves a bit the styling.
> >
> > If you are curious how I reached some of the proposal's conclusions,
you
> > can see it's iterations
> >
> >
>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIter…
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Caty
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > actually one thing we could try is this:
> > >
> > > - *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for
page-related
> > > actions:*
> > > - "Add child page"
> > > - "Add comment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > > - "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > >
> > >
> > > - *Add a "Create" button in the top bar, with 2/3 options:*
> > > - "Create page" (TBD)
> > > - "Create space"
> > > - "Create wiki"
> > > - In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would be
presented
> > with
> > > a page / modal box listing existing instances as well as available
> > > templates
> > >
> > > I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent
actions
> in
> > > the same location as a more-frequent one, not being in the right
place
> on
> > > the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the "Add" button is
easy to
find
> > > where it is right now, why move
it?).
> > >
> > > WDYT?
> > >
> > > Guillaume
> > > ᐧ
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net > > >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com
> (mailto:
> > > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On that note:
> > > > > The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing all this
> > > discussion
> > > > on
> > > > > the fact that some users did not find the "Add" button
*only
the
> > first
> > > > > time* they tried to do something. The realization is that this
is
> one
> > > of
> > > > > those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn once and know how to
> > easily
> > > do
> > > > > the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
> > > > >
> > > > > The real problem appears when you are in those "next 1000x
time"
> and
> > > you
> > > > > find it cumbersome to use (like riding a bike with no saddle,
or
> with
> > > the
> > > > > saddle on backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or middle of
the
> > page)
> > > > once
> > > > > you find it once, you will find it again, however in the
middle of
> > the
> > > > page
> > > > > it conflicts too often with the Edit button and other page
related
> > > > actions,
> > > > > that it becomes cumbersome to use.
> > > >
> > > > Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just ask to
add a
> > page
> > > > and that’s all then you’re not doing a full test. You’d need to
ask
> the
> > > > user to:
> > > > - add a page
> > > > - delete a page
> > > > - move a page
> > > > - create a space
> > > > - etc
> > > >
> > > > And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Vincent
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Eduard
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------
> > > > > [1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
> > > > > [2]
> > > >
> https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau
(
> > > > > > gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the
current
> page,
> > so
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > current location, instead of the "black bar that
gives the
> > > > impression of
> > > > > > > not beeing a part of that page" (that she did not
manage to
> find
> > by
> > > > > > > herself).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I then explained that the buttons inside the page only
concern
> > the
> > > > > > actions
> > > > > > > that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a new
page
> should
> > be
> > > > put
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > an other location. She did not like this logic :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So with this logic we should remove the top bar completely
and
> move
> > > all
> > > > > > actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu inside the
page.
> > > > Because if
> > > > > > she couldn’t find the Add button there she also wouldn’t be
able
> to
> > > > find
> > > > > > all wiki-related actions, space-related actions and more
> > importantly
> > > > > > **page-related** actions like copy page, rename page or
delete
> > page…
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using Confluence
and
> see
> > if
> > > > she
> > > > > > fails to create a page there too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Users' logic and developer's logic are not the
same. I
like the
> > > > current
> > > > > > > location too, except that we should propose
"create page"
> before
> > > > "create
> > > > > > > wiki".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I really would like to have some feedback of normal
users,
with
> > > the 2
> > > > > > > proposals. We, as developers, are not good at making
things
> that
> > > look
> > > > > > > simple for other people, so we should not take this
decision
> > alone.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Guillaume Delhumeau
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
3:33 p.m.
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:28 PM, vincent(a)massol.net <vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
I've created http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11166 and
http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11167
Thanks,
Caty
On 3 Oct 2014 at 13:05:08, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (valicac(a)gmail.com
(mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
As I said in the proposal "Well known actions are represented with icons,
while we provide text only for user generated entities
(Wiki/Space/Page/User names)".
Hi,
Some notes about the proposal:
- I like the 'Add' represented as '+' and after the Wiki/Space/Page
breadcrumb, because is somehow consistent with the '+' (More
applications)
from the AppBar. Provides a way to create
elements of a particular type
in
the near vicinity where the elements are
displayed.
What I don’t like is that it’s the only menu entry at the top that
wouldn’t have any text (just an icon) and it’s one of the most important
one.
I’d use a color (the green one looks fine to me to make it visible) for
now for 6.2.2 and maybe do some usability testing on various variations as
you did for the other usability tests, in order to gather more feedback and
have more time to gather it.
I've also iterated on the 'green color' idea, see
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
but I prefer the initial proposal (with white) since I think the contrast
is better and also we keep consistency between elements.
- Although I know there will be some initial
findability issues for the
'Add', after the user founds it I don't think it will have problems
finding
it again. We can improve the findability by
finally providing an
Introductory Wizard. Except for the initial moments when you learn
XWiki, I
don't see the point of having a very
distinctive style for 'Add' and I
would prefer to go on the consistent/integrated with the other navbar
elements direction.
- The same comment about a distinctive style for 'Search'. IMO 'Search'
should look integrated in the .navbar.
- I dislike the idea of having multiple 'Add' buttons. Also the 'Add -
Comment to page' and 'Add - Attachment to page' are part of the Colibri
skin, but IMO were 'close to never' used. I remember a bug on them that
made them unusable and we discovered it after some years or something.
Also
I don't think we should provide buttons for
all the functionality we can
think of, but leave them be created from their context. I prefer having
buttons just for the generic and base concepts of XWiki (in the try of
keeping it minimal and simple).
- We are kind of going a bit too crazy about brainstorming and ideas. The
only conclusion we need to reach is if for Flamingo we move the button
back
top.
Yes I agree completely with this. We shouldn’t mix everything right now or
we won’t progress.
The only other thing that we may want to have in 6.2.2 too is the removal
of the 2 part-buttons at the top and the introduction of the “Go to…” for
navigation.
The rest is fine to discuss and tune for 6.3+ IMO.
Thanks
-Vincent
Thanks,
Caty
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Eduard Moraru wrote:
> Big +1 for Var3 for the simple fact that it looks like a
"holistic"/global
> approach that does not only focus on a
specific element, like the "Add"
> button and currently falls into the mistake of making it a bright shiny
> beacon to misguided users, resulting in something that is overall
> disturbing to the eye. Same can be said about the "Search" element,
since
> it now reduces the heavy contrast of both
the search input (bright
white on
> dark background) and its search button
(bright colored blue on dark
> background).
>
> About the Search button (re: Jeremie): Because it is the first element
in
> its group, it will show to the left and no
other elements will be
> disturbed, so the transition will be nice for users. Basically the
expand
> search button (the magnifying glass) becomes
a button once you expand
it,
> so there should be no flicker or anything
like that.
> - As an alternative, if we really are against
> transitions/animations/expandable elements/etc, we could just present
the
> search as directly expanded (classic way),
but still keep the darker
input
> color to avoid the "kitch" effect
described above due to high
contrasts.
>
> About the + (Add) button, IMO, the only thing we could do more if we
really
> want to emphasize it in an *elegant*
fashion, would be to make the +
sign
> itself green, or with some green border,
whatever. Whatever we do, we
> should try to consider Caty's opinion on style here since she might
have
a
> better eye and this proposal here seems to
be towards that direction.
>
> IMO, one very interesting thing to note is the extended (3.4) version
and
> long term view that we also need to take
into account and, at least to
me,
> that looks really slick.
>
> I think we should stick to the original intent of this Flamingo skin,
with
> the addition of Bootstrap's style, and
keep it slick, minimalistic and
to
> the point. The users should focus more on
the content instead of the
UI,
> don`t u think?
>
> ------
> On a related note, If you ask me, I would be in favor of also removing
the
> labels from "Edit" and "More
actions" and just go with the *all too
> obvious* "pencil" and "cog" icons. GMail uses the
"cog" icon with 0
> problems and I kind of trust that their UX army did their research and
> impact studies for that :)
>
> Also, on matters of "consistency" we would achieve the following
statement:
> "Actions have only icons, while
entities have an icon and a label that
> displays the entity's name".
> - Actions: add, edit, search, more actions, etc.
> - Entities (with dropdown menu for actions on the entries): wiki,
space,
> page, user.
> ------
>
> Let's keep this skin clean and a pleasure to work on/with, WDYT?
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> valicac(a)gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I've created this proposal
> >
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation
> > Please read it and give your opinion on
it. The proposal is based on
> > discussed solution, but improves a bit the styling.
> >
> > If you are curious how I reached some of the proposal's conclusions,
you
> > can see it's iterations
> >
> >
>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIter…
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Caty
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > actually one thing we could try is this:
> > >
> > > - *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for
page-related
> > > actions:*
> > > - "Add child page"
> > > - "Add comment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > > - "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > >
> > >
> > > - *Add a "Create" button in the top bar, with 2/3 options:*
> > > - "Create page" (TBD)
> > > - "Create space"
> > > - "Create wiki"
> > > - In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would be
presented
> > with
> > > a page / modal box listing existing instances as well as available
> > > templates
> > >
> > > I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent
actions
> in
> > > the same location as a more-frequent one, not being in the right
place
> on
> > > the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the "Add" button is
easy to
find
> > > where it is right now, why move
it?).
> > >
> > > WDYT?
> > >
> > > Guillaume
> > > ᐧ
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net > > >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com
> (mailto:
> > > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On that note:
> > > > > The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing all this
> > > discussion
> > > > on
> > > > > the fact that some users did not find the "Add" button
*only
the
> > first
> > > > > time* they tried to do something. The realization is that this
is
> one
> > > of
> > > > > those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn once and know how to
> > easily
> > > do
> > > > > the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
> > > > >
> > > > > The real problem appears when you are in those "next 1000x
time"
> and
> > > you
> > > > > find it cumbersome to use (like riding a bike with no saddle,
or
> with
> > > the
> > > > > saddle on backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or middle of
the
> > page)
> > > > once
> > > > > you find it once, you will find it again, however in the
middle of
> > the
> > > > page
> > > > > it conflicts too often with the Edit button and other page
related
> > > > actions,
> > > > > that it becomes cumbersome to use.
> > > >
> > > > Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just ask to
add a
> > page
> > > > and that’s all then you’re not doing a full test. You’d need to
ask
> the
> > > > user to:
> > > > - add a page
> > > > - delete a page
> > > > - move a page
> > > > - create a space
> > > > - etc
> > > >
> > > > And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Vincent
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Eduard
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------
> > > > > [1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
> > > > > [2]
> > > >
> https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau
(
> > > > > > gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the
current
> page,
> > so
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > current location, instead of the "black bar that
gives the
> > > > impression of
> > > > > > > not beeing a part of that page" (that she did not
manage to
> find
> > by
> > > > > > > herself).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I then explained that the buttons inside the page only
concern
> > the
> > > > > > actions
> > > > > > > that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a new
page
> should
> > be
> > > > put
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > an other location. She did not like this logic :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So with this logic we should remove the top bar completely
and
> move
> > > all
> > > > > > actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu inside the
page.
> > > > Because if
> > > > > > she couldn’t find the Add button there she also wouldn’t be
able
> to
> > > > find
> > > > > > all wiki-related actions, space-related actions and more
> > importantly
> > > > > > **page-related** actions like copy page, rename page or
delete
> > page…
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using Confluence
and
> see
> > if
> > > > she
> > > > > > fails to create a page there too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Users' logic and developer's logic are not the
same. I
like the
> > > > current
> > > > > > > location too, except that we should propose
"create page"
> before
> > > > "create
> > > > > > > wiki".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I really would like to have some feedback of normal
users,
with
> > > the 2
> > > > > > > proposals. We, as developers, are not good at making
things
> that
> > > look
> > > > > > > simple for other people, so we should not take this
decision
> > alone.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Guillaume Delhumeau
3:50 p.m.
On 3 Oct 2014 at 15:33:53, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
(valicac@gmail.com(mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
I don’t think there needs to be a consistency because we want to draw attention to it
which is not the case for the other elements. That said, using a “+” without text would be
a consistency issue since it’s the only one like this...
Anyway, I don’t want to fight too long on this because I’d like us to move forward so if
others are ok to use just a “+” with the same color as the other menus, then I’m fine
(even though I don’t like it). BTW I hope it’s not too small and can be clicked on a
mobile ;)
Thanks
-Vincent
I've created http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11166 and
http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11167
Thanks,
Caty
>
> The rest is fine to discuss and tune for 6.3+ IMO.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > Thanks,
> > Caty
>
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Eduard Moraru wrote:
> >
> > > Big +1 for Var3 for the simple fact that it looks like a
> "holistic"/global
> > > approach that does not only focus on a specific element, like the
"Add"
> > > button and currently falls into the mistake of making it a bright shiny
> > > beacon to misguided users, resulting in something that is overall
> > > disturbing to the eye. Same can be said about the "Search"
element,
> since
> > > it now reduces the heavy contrast of both the search input (bright
> white on
> > > dark background) and its search button (bright colored blue on dark
> > > background).
> > >
> > > About the Search button (re: Jeremie): Because it is the first element
> in
> > > its group, it will show to the left and no other elements will be
> > > disturbed, so the transition will be nice for users. Basically the
> expand
> > > search button (the magnifying glass) becomes a button once you expand
> it,
> > > so there should be no flicker or anything like that.
> > > - As an alternative, if we really are against
> > > transitions/animations/expandable elements/etc, we could just present
> the
> > > search as directly expanded (classic way), but still keep the darker
> input
> > > color to avoid the "kitch" effect described above due to high
> contrasts.
> > >
> > > About the + (Add) button, IMO, the only thing we could do more if we
> really
> > > want to emphasize it in an *elegant* fashion, would be to make the +
> sign
> > > itself green, or with some green border, whatever. Whatever we do, we
> > > should try to consider Caty's opinion on style here since she might
> have a
> > > better eye and this proposal here seems to be towards that direction.
> > >
> > > IMO, one very interesting thing to note is the extended (3.4) version
> and
> > > long term view that we also need to take into account and, at least to
> me,
> > > that looks really slick.
> > >
> > > I think we should stick to the original intent of this Flamingo skin,
> with
> > > the addition of Bootstrap's style, and keep it slick, minimalistic
and
> to
> > > the point. The users should focus more on the content instead of the
> UI,
> > > don`t u think?
> > >
> > > ------
> > > On a related note, If you ask me, I would be in favor of also removing
> the
> > > labels from "Edit" and "More actions" and just go with
the *all too
> > > obvious* "pencil" and "cog" icons. GMail uses the
"cog" icon with 0
> > > problems and I kind of trust that their UX army did their research and
> > > impact studies for that :)
> > >
> > > Also, on matters of "consistency" we would achieve the
following
> statement:
> > > "Actions have only icons, while entities have an icon and a label
that
> > > displays the entity's name".
> > > - Actions: add, edit, search, more actions, etc.
> > > - Entities (with dropdown menu for actions on the entries): wiki,
> space,
> > > page, user.
> > > ------
> > >
> > > Let's keep this skin clean and a pleasure to work on/with, WDYT?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > > valicac(a)gmail.com
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I've created this proposal
> > > >
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation
> > > > Please read it and give your opinion on it. The proposal is based on
> > > > discussed solution, but improves a bit the styling.
> > > >
> > > > If you are curious how I reached some of the proposal's
conclusions,
> you
> > > > can see it's iterations
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIter…
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Caty
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > actually one thing we could try is this:
> > > > >
> > > > > - *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for
page-related
> > > > > actions:*
> > > > > - "Add child page"
> > > > > - "Add comment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > > > > - "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - *Add a "Create" button in the top bar, with 2/3
options:*
> > > > > - "Create page" (TBD)
> > > > > - "Create space"
> > > > > - "Create wiki"
> > > > > - In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would
be presented
> > > > with
> > > > > a page / modal box listing existing instances as well as
available
> > > > > templates
> > > > >
> > > > > I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent
> actions
> > > in
> > > > > the same location as a more-frequent one, not being in the
right
> place
> > > on
> > > > > the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the "Add"
button is easy to
> find
> > > > > where it is right now, why move it?).
> > > > >
> > > > > WDYT?
> > > > >
> > > > > Guillaume
> > > > > ᐧ
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net > >
>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru
(enygma2002(a)gmail.com
> > > (mailto:
> > > > > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On that note:
> > > > > > > The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing
all this
> > > > > discussion
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > the fact that some users did not find the
"Add" button *only
> the
> > > > first
> > > > > > > time* they tried to do something. The realization is
that this
> is
> > > one
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn once and
know how to
> > > > easily
> > > > > do
> > > > > > > the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The real problem appears when you are in those
"next 1000x
> time"
> > > and
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > find it cumbersome to use (like riding a bike with no
saddle,
> or
> > > with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > saddle on backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or
middle of
> the
> > > > page)
> > > > > > once
> > > > > > > you find it once, you will find it again, however in
the
> middle of
> > > > the
> > > > > > page
> > > > > > > it conflicts too often with the Edit button and other
page
> related
> > > > > > actions,
> > > > > > > that it becomes cumbersome to use.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just ask
to
> add a
> > > > page
> > > > > > and that’s all then you’re not doing a full test. You’d
need to
> ask
> > > the
> > > > > > user to:
> > > > > > - add a page
> > > > > > - delete a page
> > > > > > - move a page
> > > > > > - create a space
> > > > > > - etc
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Eduard
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----------
> > > > > > > [1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
> > > > > > > [2]
> > > > > >
> > > https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie
Delhumeau (
> > > > > > > >
gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have done the "test-on-my-wife"
thing :)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > She finds it more intuitive to add a page
from the current
> > > page,
> > > > so
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > current location, instead of the "black
bar that gives the
> > > > > > impression of
> > > > > > > > > not beeing a part of that page" (that
she did not manage to
> > > find
> > > > by
> > > > > > > > > herself).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I then explained that the buttons inside the
page only
> concern
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > actions
> > > > > > > > > that you can do on that page, meanwhile
adding a new page
> > > should
> > > > be
> > > > > > put
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > an other location. She did not like this
logic :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So with this logic we should remove the top bar
completely
> and
> > > move
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > > actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu
inside the
> page.
> > > > > > Because if
> > > > > > > > she couldn’t find the Add button there she also
wouldn’t be
> able
> > > to
> > > > > > find
> > > > > > > > all wiki-related actions, space-related actions
and more
> > > > importantly
> > > > > > > > **page-related** actions like copy page, rename
page or
> delete
> > > > page…
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using
Confluence
> and
> > > see
> > > > if
> > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > fails to create a page there too.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Users' logic and developer's logic
are not the same. I
> like the
> > > > > > current
> > > > > > > > > location too, except that we should propose
"create page"
> > > before
> > > > > > "create
> > > > > > > > > wiki".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I really would like to have some feedback of
normal users,
> with
> > > > > the 2
> > > > > > > > > proposals. We, as developers, are not good
at making things
> > > that
> > > > > look
> > > > > > > > > simple for other people, so we should not
take this
> decision
> > > > alone.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Guillaume Delhumeau
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:28 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
wrote:
But I don’t see this anywhere in the current UI: we have “Edit”, “Add”, “More Actions..”
which are all well known actions...
Is that a new rule you’d like to have?
If it is, it makes more sense to me to move all to this new rule at once instead of doing
an exception just for the Add button, don’t you think so?
On 3 Oct 2014 at 13:05:08, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (valicac(a)gmail.com
(mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
As I said in the proposal "Well known actions are represented with icons,
while we provide text only for user generated entities
(Wiki/Space/Page/User names)”. Hi,
Some notes about the proposal:
- I like the 'Add' represented as '+' and after the Wiki/Space/Page
breadcrumb, because is somehow consistent with the '+' (More
applications)
from the AppBar. Provides a way to create
elements of a particular type
in
the near vicinity where the elements are
displayed.
What I don’t like is that it’s the only menu entry at the top that
wouldn’t have any text (just an icon) and it’s one of the most important
one.
I’d use a
color (the green one looks fine to me to make it visible) for
now for 6.2.2 and maybe do some usability testing on various variations as
you did for the other usability tests, in order to gather more feedback and
have more time to gather it.
I've also iterated on the 'green color' idea, see
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
but I prefer the initial proposal (with white) since I think the contrast
is better and also we keep consistency between elements. - Although I know there will be some initial
findability issues for the
'Add', after the user founds it I don't think it will have problems
finding
it again. We can improve the findability by
finally providing an
Introductory Wizard. Except for the initial moments when you learn
XWiki, I
don't see the point of having a very
distinctive style for 'Add' and I
would prefer to go on the consistent/integrated with the other navbar
elements direction.
- The same comment about a distinctive style for 'Search'. IMO 'Search'
should look integrated in the .navbar.
- I dislike the idea of having multiple 'Add' buttons. Also the 'Add -
Comment to page' and 'Add - Attachment to page' are part of the Colibri
skin, but IMO were 'close to never' used. I remember a bug on them that
made them unusable and we discovered it after some years or something.
Also
I don't think we should provide buttons for
all the functionality we can
think of, but leave them be created from their context. I prefer having
buttons just for the generic and base concepts of XWiki (in the try of
keeping it minimal and simple).
- We are kind of going a bit too crazy about brainstorming and ideas. The
only conclusion we need to reach is if for Flamingo we move the button
back
top.
Yes I agree completely with this. We shouldn’t mix everything right now or
we won’t progress.
The only other thing that we may want to have in 6.2.2 too is the removal
of the 2 part-buttons at the top and the introduction of the “Go to…” for
navigation.
3:57 p.m.
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 4:50 PM, vincent(a)massol.net <vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
Actually I would need to make a proposal also for the mobile version, since
there things are a bit messed up (because of the Search change) and we
might need to provide a custom order.
Thanks,
Caty
On 3 Oct 2014 at 15:33:53, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (valicac(a)gmail.com
(mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
But I don’t see this anywhere in the current UI: we have “Edit”, “Add”,
“More Actions..” which are all well known actions...
Is that a new rule you’d like to have?
If it is, it makes more sense to me to move all to this new rule at once
instead of doing an exception just for the Add button, don’t you think so?
So yes, is not something existing, it was more of a premise I based my
design when I did iterations (in order to assure consistency).
For example, one of the iterations looks like this
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
(where even Edit and More actions are replaced with only icons) ... but
again these are design ideas, iterations and proposals.
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:28 PM,
vincent(a)massol.net
wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3 Oct 2014 at 13:05:08, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (
valicac(a)gmail.com
> (mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Some notes about the proposal:
> >
> > - I like the 'Add' represented as '+' and after the
Wiki/Space/Page
> > breadcrumb, because is somehow consistent with the '+' (More
> applications)
> > from the AppBar. Provides a way to create elements of a particular
type
> in
> > the near vicinity where the elements are displayed.
>
> What I don’t like is that it’s the only menu entry at the top that
> wouldn’t have any text (just an icon) and it’s one of the most
important
one.
As I said in the proposal "Well known actions are represented with icons,
while we provide text only for user generated entities
(Wiki/Space/Page/User names)”. 
> I’d use a color (the green one looks fine to
me to make it visible) for
> now for 6.2.2 and maybe do some usability testing on various
variations as
> you did for the other usability tests, in
order to gather more
feedback and
have more
time to gather it.
I've also iterated on the 'green color' idea, see
but I prefer the initial proposal (with white)
since I think the contrast
is better and also we keep consistency between elements.
I don’t think there needs to be a consistency because we want to draw
attention to it which is not the case for the other elements. That said,
using a “+” without text would be a consistency issue since it’s the only
one like this...
Anyway, I don’t want to fight too long on this because I’d like us to move
forward so if others are ok to use just a “+” with the same color as the
other menus, then I’m fine (even though I don’t like it). BTW I hope it’s
not too small and can be clicked on a mobile ;)
Thanks
-Vincent
"Add"
> > - Although I know there will be some
initial findability issues for
the
> > 'Add', after the user founds it
I don't think it will have problems
> finding
> > it again. We can improve the findability by finally providing an
> > Introductory Wizard. Except for the initial moments when you learn
> XWiki, I
> > don't see the point of having a very distinctive style for 'Add'
and
I
> > would prefer to go on the
consistent/integrated with the other navbar
> > elements direction.
> >
> > - The same comment about a distinctive style for 'Search'. IMO
'Search'
> > should look integrated in the .navbar.
> >
> > - I dislike the idea of having multiple 'Add' buttons. Also the
'Add
-
> > Comment to page' and 'Add -
Attachment to page' are part of the
Colibri
> > skin, but IMO were 'close to
never' used. I remember a bug on them
that
> > made them unusable and we discovered it
after some years or
something.
> Also
> > I don't think we should provide buttons for all the functionality we
can
> > think of, but leave them be created
from their context. I prefer
having
> > buttons just for the generic and base
concepts of XWiki (in the try
of
> > keeping it minimal and simple).
> >
> > - We are kind of going a bit too crazy about brainstorming and
ideas.
The
> > only conclusion we need to reach is if
for Flamingo we move the
button
> back
> > top.
>
> Yes I agree completely with this. We shouldn’t mix everything right
now or
> we won’t progress.
>
> The only other thing that we may want to have in 6.2.2 too is the
removal
> of the 2 part-buttons at the top and the
introduction of the “Go to…”
for
navigation.
I've created http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11166 and
http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11167
Thanks,
Caty
>
> The rest is fine to discuss and tune for 6.3+ IMO.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > Thanks,
> > Caty
>
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Eduard Moraru wrote:
> >
> > > Big +1 for Var3 for the simple fact that it looks like a
> "holistic"/global
> > > approach that does not only focus on a specific element, like the > > > button and currently falls into
the mistake of making it a bright
shiny
> > > beacon to misguided users,
resulting in something that is overall
> > > disturbing to the eye. Same can be said about the "Search"
element,
> since
> > > it now reduces the heavy contrast of both the search input (bright
> white on
> > > dark background) and its search button (bright colored blue on dark
> > > background).
> > >
> > > About the Search button (re: Jeremie): Because it is the first
element
> in
> > > its group, it will show to the left and no other elements will be
> > > disturbed, so the transition will be nice for users. Basically the
> expand
> > > search button (the magnifying glass) becomes a button once you
expand
> it,
> > > so there should be no flicker or anything like that.
> > > - As an alternative, if we really are against
> > > transitions/animations/expandable elements/etc, we could just
present
> the
> > > search as directly expanded (classic way), but still keep the
darker
> input
> > > color to avoid the "kitch" effect described above due to high
> contrasts.
> > >
> > > About the + (Add) button, IMO, the only thing we could do more if
we
> really
> > > want to emphasize it in an *elegant* fashion, would be to make the
+
> sign
> > > itself green, or with some green border, whatever. Whatever we do,
we
> > > should try to consider Caty's
opinion on style here since she might
> have a
> > > better eye and this proposal here seems to be towards that
direction.
> > >
> > > IMO, one very interesting thing to note is the extended (3.4)
version
> and
> > > long term view that we also need to take into account and, at
least
to
> me,
> > > that looks really slick.
> > >
> > > I think we should stick to the original intent of this Flamingo
skin,
> with
> > > the addition of Bootstrap's style, and keep it slick, minimalistic
and
> to
> > > the point. The users should focus more on the content instead of
the
> UI,
> > > don`t u think?
> > >
> > > ------
> > > On a related note, If you ask me, I would be in favor of also
removing
> the
> > > labels from "Edit" and "More actions" and just go with
the *all too
> > > obvious* "pencil" and "cog" icons. GMail uses the
"cog" icon with 0
> > > problems and I kind of trust that their UX army did their research
and
> > > impact studies for that :)
> > >
> > > Also, on matters of "consistency" we would achieve the
following
> statement:
> > > "Actions have only icons, while entities have an icon and a label
that
> > > displays the entity's
name".
> > > - Actions: add, edit, search, more actions, etc.
> > > - Entities (with dropdown menu for actions on the entries): wiki,
> space,
> > > page, user.
> > > ------
> > >
> > > Let's keep this skin clean and a pleasure to work on/with, WDYT?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > > valicac(a)gmail.com
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I've created this proposal
> > > >
>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation
> > > > Please read it and give your
opinion on it. The proposal is
based on
> > > > discussed solution, but
improves a bit the styling.
> > > >
> > > > If you are curious how I reached some of the proposal's
conclusions,
> you
> > > > can see it's iterations
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIter…
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Caty
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > actually one thing we could try is this:
> > > > >
> > > > > - *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for
page-related
> > > > > actions:*
> > > > > - "Add child page"
> > > > > - "Add comment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > > > > - "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - *Add a "Create" button in the top bar, with 2/3
options:*
> > > > > - "Create page" (TBD)
> > > > > - "Create space"
> > > > > - "Create wiki"
> > > > > - In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would
be
presented
> > > > with
> > > > > a page / modal box listing existing instances as well as
available
> > > > > templates
> > > > >
> > > > > I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent
> actions
> > > in
> > > > > the same location as a more-frequent one, not being in the
right
> place
> > > on
> > > > > the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the "Add"
button is
easy to
> find
> > > > > where it is right now, why move it?).
> > > > >
> > > > > WDYT?
> > > > >
> > > > > Guillaume
> > > > > ᐧ
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net > >
>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (
enygma2002(a)gmail.com
> > > (mailto:
> > > > > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On that note:
> > > > > > > The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing
all
this
> > > > > discussion
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > the fact that some users did not find the
"Add" button
*only
> the
> > > > first
> > > > > > > time* they tried to do something. The realization is
that
this
> is
> > > one
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn once and
know
how to
> > > > easily
> > > > > do
> > > > > > > the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The real problem appears when you are in those
"next 1000x
> time"
> > > and
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > find it cumbersome to use (like riding a bike with no
saddle,
> or
> > > with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > saddle on backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or
middle
of
> the
> > > > page)
> > > > > > once
> > > > > > > you find it once, you will find it again, however in
the
> middle of
> > > > the
> > > > > > page
> > > > > > > it conflicts too often with the Edit button and other
page
> related
> > > > > > actions,
> > > > > > > that it becomes cumbersome to use.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just ask
to
> add a
> > > > page
> > > > > > and that’s all then you’re not doing a full test. You’d
need
to
> ask
> > > the
> > > > > > user to:
> > > > > > - add a page
> > > > > > - delete a page
> > > > > > - move a page
> > > > > > - create a space
> > > > > > - etc
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Eduard
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----------
> > > > > > > [1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
> > > > > > > [2]
> > > > > >
> > >
https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie
Delhumeau (
> > > > > > > >
gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com))
wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have done the "test-on-my-wife"
thing :)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > She finds it more intuitive to add a page
from the
current
> > > page,
> > > > so
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > current location, instead of the "black
bar that gives
the
> > > > > > impression of
> > > > > > > > > not beeing a part of that page" (that
she did not
manage to
> > > find
> > > > by
> > > > > > > > > herself).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I then explained that the buttons inside the
page only
> concern
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > actions
> > > > > > > > > that you can do on that page, meanwhile
adding a new
page
> > > should
> > > > be
> > > > > > put
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > an other location. She did not like this
logic :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So with this logic we should remove the top bar
completely
> and
> > > move
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > > actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu
inside the
> page.
> > > > > > Because if
> > > > > > > > she couldn’t find the Add button there she also
wouldn’t
be
> able
> > > to
> > > > > > find
> > > > > > > > all wiki-related actions, space-related actions
and more
> > > > importantly
> > > > > > > > **page-related** actions like copy page, rename
page or
> delete
> > > > page…
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using
Confluence
> and
> > > see
> > > > if
> > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > fails to create a page there too.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Users' logic and developer's logic
are not the same. I
> like the
> > > > > > current
> > > > > > > > > location too, except that we should propose
"create
page"
> > > before
> > > > > > "create
> > > > > > > > > wiki".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I really would like to have some feedback of
normal
users,
> with
> > > > > the 2
> > > > > > > > > proposals. We, as developers, are not good
at making
things
> > > that
> > > > > look
> > > > > > > > > simple for other people, so we should not
take this
> decision
> > > > alone.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Guillaume Delhumeau
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
4:27 p.m.
I've made a screenshot of how it should look on mobile
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
The 'Add' should be represented as a menu, having a consistent look with
the other entries.
Thanks,
Caty
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 4:57 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <valicac(a)gmail.com
wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 4:50 PM, vincent(a)massol.net <vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3 Oct 2014 at 15:33:53, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (valicac(a)gmail.com
>> (mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
>>
>> > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:28 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On 3 Oct 2014 at 13:05:08, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (
>> valicac(a)gmail.com
>> > > (mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Hi,
>> > > >
>> > > > Some notes about the proposal:
>> > > >
>> > > > - I like the 'Add' represented as '+' and after
the Wiki/Space/Page
>> > > > breadcrumb, because is somehow consistent with the '+'
(More
>> > > applications)
>> > > > from the AppBar. Provides a way to create elements of a
particular
>> type
>> > > in
>> > > > the near vicinity where the elements are displayed.
>> > >
>> > > What I don’t like is that it’s the only menu entry at the top that
>> > > wouldn’t have any text (just an icon) and it’s one of the most
>> important
>> > > one.
>> > >
>> >
>> > As I said in the proposal "Well known actions are represented with
>> icons,
>> > while we provide text only for user generated entities
>> > (Wiki/Space/Page/User names)”.
>>
>> But I don’t see this anywhere in the current UI: we have “Edit”, “Add”,
>> “More Actions..” which are all well known actions...
>>
>> Is that a new rule you’d like to have?
>>
>> If it is, it makes more sense to me to move all to this new rule at once
>> instead of doing an exception just for the Add button, don’t you think so?
>>
>
> So yes, is not something existing, it was more of a premise I based my
> design when I did iterations (in order to assure consistency).
> For example, one of the iterations looks like this
>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
> (where even Edit and More actions are replaced with only icons) ... but
> again these are design ideas, iterations and proposals.
>
>
>>
>> > > I’d use a color (the green one looks fine to me to make it visible)
>> for
>> > > now for 6.2.2 and maybe do some usability testing on various
>> variations as
>> > > you did for the other usability tests, in order to gather more
>> feedback and
>> > > have more time to gather it.
>> > >
>> >
>> > I've also iterated on the 'green color' idea, see
>> >
>>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
>> >
>>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
>> > but I prefer the initial proposal (with white) since I think the
>> contrast
>> > is better and also we keep consistency between elements.
>>
>> I don’t think there needs to be a consistency because we want to draw
>> attention to it which is not the case for the other elements. That said,
>> using a “+” without text would be a consistency issue since it’s the only
>> one like this...
>>
>> Anyway, I don’t want to fight too long on this because I’d like us to
>> move forward so if others are ok to use just a “+” with the same color as
>> the other menus, then I’m fine (even though I don’t like it). BTW I hope
>> it’s not too small and can be clicked on a mobile ;)
>>
>
> Actually I would need to make a proposal also for the mobile version,
> since there things are a bit messed up (because of the Search change) and
> we might need to provide a custom order.
>
> Thanks,
> Caty
>
>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>>
>> > > > - Although I know there will be some initial findability issues
for
>> the
>> > > > 'Add', after the user founds it I don't think it will
have problems
>> > > finding
>> > > > it again. We can improve the findability by finally providing an
>> > > > Introductory Wizard. Except for the initial moments when you
learn
>> > > XWiki, I
>> > > > don't see the point of having a very distinctive style for
'Add'
>> and I
>> > > > would prefer to go on the consistent/integrated with the other
>> navbar
>> > > > elements direction.
>> > > >
>> > > > - The same comment about a distinctive style for 'Search'.
IMO
>> 'Search'
>> > > > should look integrated in the .navbar.
>> > > >
>> > > > - I dislike the idea of having multiple 'Add' buttons.
Also the
>> 'Add -
>> > > > Comment to page' and 'Add - Attachment to page' are
part of the
>> Colibri
>> > > > skin, but IMO were 'close to never' used. I remember a bug
on them
>> that
>> > > > made them unusable and we discovered it after some years or
>> something.
>> > > Also
>> > > > I don't think we should provide buttons for all the
functionality
>> we can
>> > > > think of, but leave them be created from their context. I prefer
>> having
>> > > > buttons just for the generic and base concepts of XWiki (in the
try
>> of
>> > > > keeping it minimal and simple).
>> > > >
>> > > > - We are kind of going a bit too crazy about brainstorming and
>> ideas. The
>> > > > only conclusion we need to reach is if for Flamingo we move the
>> button
>> > > back
>> > > > top.
>> > >
>> > > Yes I agree completely with this. We shouldn’t mix everything right
>> now or
>> > > we won’t progress.
>> > >
>> > > The only other thing that we may want to have in 6.2.2 too is the
>> removal
>> > > of the 2 part-buttons at the top and the introduction of the “Go to…”
>> for
>> > > navigation.
>> > >
>> >
>> > I've created http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11166 and
>> > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11167
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Caty
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > The rest is fine to discuss and tune for 6.3+ IMO.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks
>> > > -Vincent
>> > >
>> > > > Thanks,
>> > > > Caty
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Eduard Moraru wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Big +1 for Var3 for the simple fact that it looks like a
>> > > "holistic"/global
>> > > > > approach that does not only focus on a specific element, like
the
>> "Add"
>> > > > > button and currently falls into the mistake of making it a
bright
>> shiny
>> > > > > beacon to misguided users, resulting in something that is
overall
>> > > > > disturbing to the eye. Same can be said about the
"Search"
>> element,
>> > > since
>> > > > > it now reduces the heavy contrast of both the search input
(bright
>> > > white on
>> > > > > dark background) and its search button (bright colored blue
on
>> dark
>> > > > > background).
>> > > > >
>> > > > > About the Search button (re: Jeremie): Because it is the
first
>> element
>> > > in
>> > > > > its group, it will show to the left and no other elements
will be
>> > > > > disturbed, so the transition will be nice for users.
Basically the
>> > > expand
>> > > > > search button (the magnifying glass) becomes a button once
you
>> expand
>> > > it,
>> > > > > so there should be no flicker or anything like that.
>> > > > > - As an alternative, if we really are against
>> > > > > transitions/animations/expandable elements/etc, we could
just
>> present
>> > > the
>> > > > > search as directly expanded (classic way), but still keep
the
>> darker
>> > > input
>> > > > > color to avoid the "kitch" effect described above
due to high
>> > > contrasts.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > About the + (Add) button, IMO, the only thing we could do
more if
>> we
>> > > really
>> > > > > want to emphasize it in an *elegant* fashion, would be to
make
>> the +
>> > > sign
>> > > > > itself green, or with some green border, whatever. Whatever
we
>> do, we
>> > > > > should try to consider Caty's opinion on style here since
she
>> might
>> > > have a
>> > > > > better eye and this proposal here seems to be towards that
>> direction.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > IMO, one very interesting thing to note is the extended
(3.4)
>> version
>> > > and
>> > > > > long term view that we also need to take into account and,
at
>> least to
>> > > me,
>> > > > > that looks really slick.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I think we should stick to the original intent of this
Flamingo
>> skin,
>> > > with
>> > > > > the addition of Bootstrap's style, and keep it slick,
>> minimalistic and
>> > > to
>> > > > > the point. The users should focus more on the content instead
of
>> the
>> > > UI,
>> > > > > don`t u think?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ------
>> > > > > On a related note, If you ask me, I would be in favor of
also
>> removing
>> > > the
>> > > > > labels from "Edit" and "More actions" and
just go with the *all
>> too
>> > > > > obvious* "pencil" and "cog" icons. GMail
uses the "cog" icon with
>> 0
>> > > > > problems and I kind of trust that their UX army did their
>> research and
>> > > > > impact studies for that :)
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Also, on matters of "consistency" we would achieve
the following
>> > > statement:
>> > > > > "Actions have only icons, while entities have an icon
and a label
>> that
>> > > > > displays the entity's name".
>> > > > > - Actions: add, edit, search, more actions, etc.
>> > > > > - Entities (with dropdown menu for actions on the entries):
wiki,
>> > > space,
>> > > > > page, user.
>> > > > > ------
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Let's keep this skin clean and a pleasure to work
on/with, WDYT?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Thanks,
>> > > > > Eduard
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
<
>> > > > > valicac(a)gmail.com
>> > > > > wrote:
>> >
> > >
>> > > > > > Hi,
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I've created this proposal
>> > > > > >
>> > >
>> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation
>> > > > > > Please read it and give your opinion on it. The proposal
is
>> based on
>> > > > > > discussed solution, but improves a bit the styling.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > If you are curious how I reached some of the
proposal's
>> conclusions,
>> > > you
>> > > > > > can see it's iterations
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > >
>>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIter…
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Thanks,
>> > > > > > Caty
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
>> > > > > wrote:
>> >
> > > >
>> > > > > > > Hi,
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > actually one thing we could try is this:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > - *Keep the "Add" button where it is and
use it for
>> page-related
>> > > > > > > actions:*
>> > > > > > > - "Add child page"
>> > > > > > > - "Add comment" (as suggested by Denis)
>> > > > > > > - "Add attachment" (as suggested by
Denis)
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > - *Add a "Create" button in the top bar,
with 2/3 options:*
>> > > > > > > - "Create page" (TBD)
>> > > > > > > - "Create space"
>> > > > > > > - "Create wiki"
>> > > > > > > - In this case, after clicking "Create"
the user would be
>> presented
>> > > > > > with
>> > > > > > > a page / modal box listing existing instances as
well as
>> available
>> > > > > > > templates
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > I think this would solve both my issues (having
less-frequent
>> > > actions
>> > > > > in
>> > > > > > > the same location as a more-frequent one, not being
in the
>> right
>> > > place
>> > > > > on
>> > > > > > > the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the
"Add" button is
>> easy to
>> > > find
>> > > > > > > where it is right now, why move it?).
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > WDYT?
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Guillaume
>> > > > > > > ᐧ
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > >
>> > > > > > wrote:
>> >
> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (
>> enygma2002(a)gmail.com
>> > > > > (mailto:
>> > > > > > > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > On that note:
>> > > > > > > > > The funny/sad thing to realise is that we
are basing all
>> this
>> > > > > > > discussion
>> > > > > > > > on
>> > > > > > > > > the fact that some users did not find the
"Add" button
>> *only
>> > > the
>> > > > > > first
>> > > > > > > > > time* they tried to do something. The
realization is that
>> this
>> > > is
>> > > > > one
>> > > > > > > of
>> > > > > > > > > those things (idioms[1][2]) that you
learn once and know
>> how to
>> > > > > > easily
>> > > > > > > do
>> > > > > > > > > the next 1000x times (like riding a
bike).
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > The real problem appears when you are in
those "next 1000x
>> > > time"
>> > > > > and
>> > > > > > > you
>> > > > > > > > > find it cumbersome to use (like riding a
bike with no
>> saddle,
>> > > or
>> > > > > with
>> > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > saddle on backwards :) ). So in both
cases (top or middle
>> of
>> > > the
>> > > > > > page)
>> > > > > > > > once
>> > > > > > > > > you find it once, you will find it again,
however in the
>> > > middle of
>> > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > page
>> > > > > > > > > it conflicts too often with the Edit
button and other page
>> > > related
>> > > > > > > > actions,
>> > > > > > > > > that it becomes cumbersome to use.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If
you just ask
>> to
>> > > add a
>> > > > > > page
>> > > > > > > > and that’s all then you’re not doing a full
test. You’d
>> need to
>> > > ask
>> > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > user to:
>> > > > > > > > - add a page
>> > > > > > > > - delete a page
>> > > > > > > > - move a page
>> > > > > > > > - create a space
>> > > > > > > > - etc
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > And then only you can draw some conclusion
IMO.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Thanks
>> > > > > > > > -Vincent
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
>> > > > > > > > > Eduard
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > ----------
>> > > > > > > > > [1]
http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
>> > > > > > > > > [2]
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM,
vincent(a)massol.net
>> > > > > > > >
wrote:
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume
Louis-Marie
>> Delhumeau (
>> > > > > > > > > >
gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com))
> wrote:
>> > > > > > >
> > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > Hi.
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > I have done the
"test-on-my-wife" thing :)
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > She finds it more intuitive to
add a page from the
>> current
>> > > > > page,
>> > > > > > so
>> > > > > > > > in
>> > > > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > > current location, instead of
the "black bar that
>> gives the
>> > > > > > > > impression of
>> > > > > > > > > > > not beeing a part of that
page" (that she did not
>> manage to
>> > > > > find
>> > > > > > by
>> > > > > > > > > > > herself).
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > I then explained that the
buttons inside the page only
>> > > concern
>> > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > actions
>> > > > > > > > > > > that you can do on that page,
meanwhile adding a new
>> page
>> > > > > should
>> > > > > > be
>> > > > > > > > put
>> > > > > > > > > > in
>> > > > > > > > > > > an other location. She did not
like this logic :)
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > So with this logic we should remove
the top bar
>> completely
>> > > and
>> > > > > move
>> > > > > > > all
>> > > > > > > > > > actions inside the page, i.e. have
only 1 menu inside
>> the
>> > > page.
>> > > > > > > > Because if
>> > > > > > > > > > she couldn’t find the Add button
there she also
>> wouldn’t be
>> > > able
>> > > > > to
>> > > > > > > > find
>> > > > > > > > > > all wiki-related actions,
space-related actions and more
>> > > > > > importantly
>> > > > > > > > > > **page-related** actions like copy
page, rename page or
>> > > delete
>> > > > > > page…
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > Also would be fun to ask your wife
to try using
>> Confluence
>> > > and
>> > > > > see
>> > > > > > if
>> > > > > > > > she
>> > > > > > > > > > fails to create a page there too.
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > Thanks
>> > > > > > > > > > -Vincent
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > Users' logic and
developer's logic are not the same. I
>> > > like the
>> > > > > > > > current
>> > > > > > > > > > > location too, except that we
should propose "create
>> page"
>> > > > > before
>> > > > > > > > "create
>> > > > > > > > > > > wiki".
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > I really would like to have
some feedback of normal
>> users,
>> > > with
>> > > > > > > the 2
>> > > > > > > > > > > proposals. We, as developers,
are not good at making
>> things
>> > > > > that
>> > > > > > > look
>> > > > > > > > > > > simple for other people, so we
should not take this
>> > > decision
>> > > > > > alone.
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > --
>> > > > > > > > > > > Guillaume Delhumeau
>> _______________________________________________
>> devs mailing list
>> devs(a)xwiki.org
>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>>
>
>
6:40 p.m.
2014-10-03 15:57 GMT+02:00 Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <valicac(a)gmail.com>om>:
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
move
'Add
the
the
minimalistic
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIter…
1000x
page
the
I
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 4:50 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
<vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
so?
So yes, is not something existing, it was more of a premise I based my
design when I did iterations (in order to assure consistency).
For example, one of the iterations looks like this
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
(where even Edit and More actions are replaced with only icons) ... but
again these are design ideas, iterations and proposals.
I really like this one, as it's consistent with your premise and not "half
consistent".
I understand Vincent's point, but my "issue" is that the "+" in
top menu
doesn't look like an icon, it looks like a '+' character, and could use
same font as the other text on left side (except that it's a bit thicker).
So it seems half-way between an entity (as it's almost text) and a well
known action (as it's an icon). This is not the case for the icons on the
right side of top bar, as they clearly don't look like any character you
usually produce with a keyboard (bell, message, magnifying glass).
I don't really like the cog icon (and I never did), because if you don't
know it yet you have no idea what to expect inside (I would except some
administration or configuration stuff, which is not the case).
Of course there are habits, but as a first time user, if I tell you "please
administrate rights of this page", would you click on the pencil or on the
cog ? ;-)
On 3 Oct 2014 at 15:33:53, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (valicac(a)gmail.com
(mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
> As I said in the proposal "Well known actions are
represented with
icons,
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:28 PM,
vincent(a)massol.net
wrote:
> On 3 Oct 2014
at 13:05:08, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (
valicac(a)gmail.com
> (mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
> > Hi,
> > > Some notes about the
proposal:
> > > - I like the 'Add'
represented as '+' and after the Wiki/Space/Page
> > breadcrumb, because is somehow consistent with the '+' (More
> applications)
> > from the AppBar. Provides a way to create elements of a particular
type
> in
> > the near vicinity where the elements are displayed.
> What I don’t like is that it’s the
only menu entry at the top that
> wouldn’t have any text (just an icon) and it’s one of the most
important
> > one.
> while we
provide text only for user generated entities
(Wiki/Space/Page/User names)”.
But I don’t see this anywhere in the current UI: we have “Edit”, “Add”,
“More Actions..” which are all well known actions...
Is that a new rule you’d like to have?
If it is, it makes more sense to me to move all to this new rule at once
instead of doing an exception just for the Add button, don’t you think
> > I’d use a color (the green one looks fine to me to make it visible)
for
> now
for 6.2.2 and maybe do some usability testing on various
variations as
> you did for the other usability tests, in
order to gather more
feedback and
have more
time to gather it.
I've also iterated on the 'green color' idea, see
> but I prefer the initial proposal (with
white) since I think the
contrast
is better
and also we keep consistency between elements.
I don’t think there needs to be a consistency because we want to draw
attention to it which is not the case for the other elements. That said,
using a “+” without text would be a consistency issue since it’s the only
one like this...
Anyway, I don’t want to fight too long on this because I’d like us to forward so if others are ok to use just a “+”
with the same color as the
other menus, then I’m fine (even though I don’t like it). BTW I hope it’s
not too small and can be clicked on a mobile ;)
Actually I would need to make a proposal also for the mobile version, since
there things are a bit messed up (because of the Search change) and we
might need to provide a custom order.
Thanks,
Caty
Thanks
-Vincent
and
> > - Although I know there will be some
initial findability issues for
the
> > > 'Add', after the user founds it I don't think it will have
problems
> > finding
> > > it again. We can improve the findability by finally providing an
> > > Introductory Wizard. Except for the initial moments when you learn
> > XWiki, I
> > > don't see the point of having a very distinctive style for
'Add' I
> > > would prefer to go on the consistent/integrated with the other
navbar
> >
elements direction.
> >
> > - The same comment about a distinctive style for 'Search'. IMO
'Search'
> > > should look integrated in the .navbar.
> > >
> > > - I dislike the idea of having multiple 'Add' buttons. Also the
-
we
> > Comment to page' and 'Add -
Attachment to page' are part of the
Colibri
> > skin, but IMO were 'close to
never' used. I remember a bug on them
that
> > made them unusable and we discovered it
after some years or
something.
> > Also
> > > I don't think we should provide buttons for all the functionality
can
"Add"
element,
> > think of, but leave them be created
from their context. I prefer
having
> > buttons just for the generic and base
concepts of XWiki (in the try
of
> > keeping it minimal and simple).
> >
> > - We are kind of going a bit too crazy about brainstorming and
ideas.
The
> > only conclusion we need to reach is if
for Flamingo we move the
button
> back
> > top.
>
> Yes I agree completely with this. We shouldn’t mix everything right
now or
> we won’t progress.
>
> The only other thing that we may want to have in 6.2.2 too is the
removal
> of the 2 part-buttons at the top and the
introduction of the “Go to…”
for
navigation.
I've created http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11166 and
http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11167
Thanks,
Caty
>
> The rest is fine to discuss and tune for 6.3+ IMO.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > Thanks,
> > Caty
>
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Eduard Moraru wrote:
> >
> > > Big +1 for Var3 for the simple fact that it looks like a
> "holistic"/global
> > > approach that does not only focus on a specific element, like the > > > button and currently falls into
the mistake of making it a bright
shiny
> > > > beacon to misguided users, resulting in something that is overall
> > > > disturbing to the eye. Same can be said about the "Search"
> > since
> > > > it now reduces the heavy contrast of both the search input
(bright
> > white on
> > > > dark background) and its search button (bright colored blue on
dark
> >
> background).
> > >
> > > About the Search button (re: Jeremie): Because it is the first
element
> > in
> > > > its group, it will show to the left and no other elements will be
> > > > disturbed, so the transition will be nice for users. Basically >
expand
> > > search button (the magnifying glass) becomes a button once you
expand
> it,
> > > so there should be no flicker or anything like that.
> > > - As an alternative, if we really are against
> > > transitions/animations/expandable elements/etc, we could just
present
> the
> > > search as directly expanded (classic way), but still keep the
darker
> input
> > > color to avoid the "kitch" effect described above due to high
> contrasts.
> > >
> > > About the + (Add) button, IMO, the only thing we could do more if
we
> > really
> > > > want to emphasize it in an *elegant* fashion, would be to make +
> > sign
> > > > itself green, or with some green border, whatever. Whatever we
do,
we
> > > > should try to consider Caty's opinion on style here since she
might
> have
a
> > > better eye and this proposal here seems to be towards that
direction.
> > >
> > > IMO, one very interesting thing to note is the extended (3.4)
version
> and
> > > long term view that we also need to take into account and, at
least
to
> me,
> > > that looks really slick.
> > >
> > > I think we should stick to the original intent of this Flamingo
skin,
> > with
> > > > the addition of Bootstrap's style, and keep it slick, and
too
> to
> > > the point. The users should focus more on the content instead of
the
> UI,
> > > don`t u think?
> > >
> > > ------
> > > On a related note, If you ask me, I would be in favor of also
removing
> > the
> > > > labels from "Edit" and "More actions" and just go
with the *all > > > > obvious* "pencil"
and "cog" icons. GMail uses the "cog" icon
with 0
> > > > problems and I kind of trust
that their UX army did their
research
> and
> > > > > impact studies for that :)
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, on matters of "consistency" we would achieve the
following
> > > statement:
> > > > > "Actions have only icons, while entities have an icon and a
label
> that
> > > > > displays the entity's name".
> > > > > - Actions: add, edit, search, more actions, etc.
> > > > > - Entities (with dropdown menu for actions on the entries):
wiki,
> > > space,
> > > > > page, user.
> > > > > ------
> > > > >
> > > > > Let's keep this skin clean and a pleasure to work on/with,
WDYT?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Eduard
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > > > > valicac(a)gmail.com
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've created this proposal
> > > > > >
> > >
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation
> > > > > > Please read it and give your opinion on it. The proposal
is
> based on
> > > > > > discussed solution, but improves a bit the styling.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you are curious how I reached some of the
proposal's
> conclusions,
> > > you
> > > > > > can see it's iterations
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Caty
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > actually one thing we could try is this:
> > > > >
> > > > > - *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for
page-related
> > > > > actions:*
> > > > > - "Add child page"
> > > > > - "Add comment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > > > > - "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - *Add a "Create" button in the top bar, with 2/3
options:*
> > > > > - "Create page" (TBD)
> > > > > - "Create space"
> > > > > - "Create wiki"
> > > > > - In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would
be
presented
> > > > with
> > > > > a page / modal box listing existing instances as well as
available
> > > > > templates
> > > > >
> > > > > I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent
> actions
> > > in
> > > > > the same location as a more-frequent one, not being in the
right
> place
> > > on
> > > > > the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the "Add"
button is
easy to
> find
> > > > > where it is right now, why move it?).
> > > > >
> > > > > WDYT?
> > > > >
> > > > > Guillaume
> > > > > ᐧ
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net > >
>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (
enygma2002(a)gmail.com
> > > (mailto:
> > > > > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On that note:
> > > > > > > The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing
all
this
> > > > > discussion
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > the fact that some users did not find the
"Add" button
*only
> the
> > > > first
> > > > > > > time* they tried to do something. The realization is
that
this
> is
> > > one
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn once and
know
how to
> > > > > easily
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The real problem appears when you are in those
"next >
time"
> > > and
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > find it cumbersome to use (like riding a bike with no
saddle,
> or
> > > with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > saddle on backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or
middle
of
> > the
> > > > > page)
> > > > > > > once
> > > > > > > > you find it once, you will find it again, however
in the
> > middle of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > page
> > > > > > > > it conflicts too often with the Edit button and
other > > related
> > > > > > > actions,
> > > > > > > > that it becomes cumbersome to use.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just
ask
to
> > add a
> > > > > page
> > > > > > > and that’s all then you’re not doing a full test.
You’d
need
to
gives
> ask
> > > the
> > > > > > user to:
> > > > > > - add a page
> > > > > > - delete a page
> > > > > > - move a page
> > > > > > - create a space
> > > > > > - etc
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Eduard
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----------
> > > > > > > [1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
> > > > > > > [2]
> > > > > >
> > >
https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie
Delhumeau (
> > > > > > > >
gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com))
wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have done the "test-on-my-wife"
thing :)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > She finds it more intuitive to add a page
from the
current
> > > > page,
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > current location, instead of the
"black bar that the
only
> > > > > > impression of
> > > > > > > > > not beeing a part of that page" (that
she did not
manage to
> > > > find
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > herself).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I then explained that the buttons
inside the page >
concern
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > actions
> > > > > > > > > that you can do on that page, meanwhile
adding a new
page
> > > should
> > > > be
> > > > > > put
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > an other location. She did not like this
logic :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So with this logic we should remove the top bar
completely
> > and
> > > > move
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1
menu inside > > page.
> > > > > > > Because if
> > > > > > > > > she couldn’t find the Add button there she
also
wouldn’t
be
> > able
> > > > to
> > > > > > > find
> > > > > > > > > all wiki-related actions, space-related
actions and
more
> >
> > importantly
> > > > > > > > **page-related** actions like copy page, rename
page or
> delete
> > > > page…
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using
Confluence
> > and
> > > > see
> > > > > if
> > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > > fails to create a page there too.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Users' logic and developer's
logic are not the same. > like
the
> > > > > > current
> > > > > > > > > location too, except that we should propose
"create
page"
> > > before
> > > > > > "create
> > > > > > > > > wiki".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I really would like to have some feedback of
normal
users,
> with
> > > > > the 2
> > > > > > > > > proposals. We, as developers, are not good
at making
things
> > > that
> > > > > look
> > > > > > > > > simple for other people, so we should not
take this
> decision
> > > > alone.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Guillaume Delhumeau
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
6:53 p.m.
On 3 Oct 2014 at 18:40:50, Jeremie BOUSQUET
(jeremie.bousquet@gmail.com(mailto:jeremie.bousquet@gmail.com)) wrote:
2014-10-03 15:57 GMT+02:00 Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
:
Yes I also like it because it makes the UI a bit less cluttered. What I don’t like is
“half consistent”, i.e. just the “+” without the rest using long names.
Now I’m not sure if at this stage we’re prepared to make such a larger jump/change for
6.2.2. This is why I was proposing to move the Add feature at the top while keeping the
“Add” text for now and do what Caty proposes as the next step. OTOH if everyone agrees
with this change right now, I’m fine with going ahead with it right now too...
Thanks
-Vincent
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 4:50 PM,
vincent(a)massol.net
wrote:
so?
So yes, is not something existing, it was more of a premise I based my
design when I did iterations (in order to assure consistency).
For example, one of the iterations looks like this
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
(where even Edit and More actions are replaced with only icons) ... but
again these are design ideas, iterations and proposals.
I really like this one, as it's consistent with your premise and not "half
consistent”.
On 3 Oct 2014 at 15:33:53, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (valicac(a)gmail.com
(mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
> As I said in the proposal "Well known actions are
represented with
icons,
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:28 PM,
vincent(a)massol.net
wrote:
> On 3 Oct 2014
at 13:05:08, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (
valicac(a)gmail.com
> (mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
> > Hi,
> > > Some notes about the
proposal:
> > > - I like the 'Add'
represented as '+' and after the Wiki/Space/Page
> > breadcrumb, because is somehow consistent with the '+' (More
> applications)
> > from the AppBar. Provides a way to create elements of a particular
type
> in
> > the near vicinity where the elements are displayed.
> What I don’t like is that it’s the
only menu entry at the top that
> wouldn’t have any text (just an icon) and it’s one of the most
important
> > one.
> while we
provide text only for user generated entities
(Wiki/Space/Page/User names)”.
But I don’t see this anywhere in the current UI: we have “Edit”, “Add”,
“More Actions..” which are all well known actions...
Is that a new rule you’d like to have?
If it is, it makes more sense to me to move all to this new rule at once
instead of doing an exception just for the Add button, don’t you think I understand Vincent's point, but my
"issue" is that the "+" in top menu
doesn't look like an icon, it looks like a '+' character, and could use
same font as the other text on left side (except that it's a bit thicker).
So it seems half-way between an entity (as it's almost text) and a well
known action (as it's an icon). This is not the case for the icons on the
right side of top bar, as they clearly don't look like any character you
usually produce with a keyboard (bell, message, magnifying glass).
I don't really like the cog icon (and I never did), because if you don't
know it yet you have no idea what to expect inside (I would except some
administration or configuration stuff, which is not the case).
Of course there are habits, but as a first time user, if I tell you "please
administrate rights of this page", would you click on the pencil or on the
cog ? ;-)
>
>
>
> >
> > > > I’d use a color (the green one looks fine to me to make it visible)
> for
> > > > now for 6.2.2 and maybe do some usability testing on various
> > variations as
> > > > you did for the other usability tests, in order to gather more
> > feedback and
> > > > have more time to gather it.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I've also iterated on the 'green color' idea, see
> > >
> >
>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
> > >
> >
>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
> > > but I prefer the initial proposal (with white) since I think the
> contrast
> > > is better and also we keep consistency between elements.
> >
> > I don’t think there needs to be a consistency because we want to draw
> > attention to it which is not the case for the other elements. That said,
> > using a “+” without text would be a consistency issue since it’s the only
> > one like this...
> >
> > Anyway, I don’t want to fight too long on this because I’d like us to
> move
> > forward so if others are ok to use just a “+” with the same color as the
> > other menus, then I’m fine (even though I don’t like it). BTW I hope it’s
> > not too small and can be clicked on a mobile ;)
> >
>
> Actually I would need to make a proposal also for the mobile version, since
> there things are a bit messed up (because of the Search change) and we
> might need to provide a custom order.
>
> Thanks,
> Caty
>
>
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> > > > > - Although I know there will be some initial findability issues
for
> > the
> > > > > 'Add', after the user founds it I don't think it
will have problems
> > > > finding
> > > > > it again. We can improve the findability by finally providing
an
> > > > > Introductory Wizard. Except for the initial moments when you
learn
> > > > XWiki, I
> > > > > don't see the point of having a very distinctive style for
'Add'
> and
> > I
> > > > > would prefer to go on the consistent/integrated with the other
> navbar
> > > > > elements direction.
> > > > >
> > > > > - The same comment about a distinctive style for
'Search'. IMO
> > 'Search'
> > > > > should look integrated in the .navbar.
> > > > >
> > > > > - I dislike the idea of having multiple 'Add' buttons.
Also the
> 'Add
> > -
> > > > > Comment to page' and 'Add - Attachment to page' are
part of the
> > Colibri
> > > > > skin, but IMO were 'close to never' used. I remember a
bug on them
> > that
> > > > > made them unusable and we discovered it after some years or
> > something.
> > > > Also
> > > > > I don't think we should provide buttons for all the
functionality
> we
> > can
> > > > > think of, but leave them be created from their context. I
prefer
> > having
> > > > > buttons just for the generic and base concepts of XWiki (in the
try
> > of
> > > > > keeping it minimal and simple).
> > > > >
> > > > > - We are kind of going a bit too crazy about brainstorming and
> > ideas. The
> > > > > only conclusion we need to reach is if for Flamingo we move the
> > button
> > > > back
> > > > > top.
> > > >
> > > > Yes I agree completely with this. We shouldn’t mix everything right
> > now or
> > > > we won’t progress.
> > > >
> > > > The only other thing that we may want to have in 6.2.2 too is the
> > removal
> > > > of the 2 part-buttons at the top and the introduction of the “Go
to…”
> > for
> > > > navigation.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I've created http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11166 and
> > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11167
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Caty
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The rest is fine to discuss and tune for 6.3+ IMO.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Vincent
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Caty
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Eduard Moraru wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Big +1 for Var3 for the simple fact that it looks like a
> > > > "holistic"/global
> > > > > > approach that does not only focus on a specific element,
like the
> > "Add"
> > > > > > button and currently falls into the mistake of making it a
bright
> > shiny
> > > > > > beacon to misguided users, resulting in something that is
overall
> > > > > > disturbing to the eye. Same can be said about the
"Search"
> element,
> > > > since
> > > > > > it now reduces the heavy contrast of both the search input
> (bright
> > > > white on
> > > > > > dark background) and its search button (bright colored blue
on
> dark
> > > > > > background).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > About the Search button (re: Jeremie): Because it is the
first
> > element
> > > > in
> > > > > > its group, it will show to the left and no other elements
will be
> > > > > > disturbed, so the transition will be nice for users.
Basically
> the
> > > > expand
> > > > > > search button (the magnifying glass) becomes a button once
you
> > expand
> > > > it,
> > > > > > so there should be no flicker or anything like that.
> > > > > > - As an alternative, if we really are against
> > > > > > transitions/animations/expandable elements/etc, we could
just
> > present
> > > > the
> > > > > > search as directly expanded (classic way), but still keep
the
> > darker
> > > > input
> > > > > > color to avoid the "kitch" effect described above
due to high
> > > > contrasts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > About the + (Add) button, IMO, the only thing we could do
more if
> > we
> > > > really
> > > > > > want to emphasize it in an *elegant* fashion, would be to
make
> the
> > +
> > > > sign
> > > > > > itself green, or with some green border, whatever. Whatever
we
> do,
> > we
> > > > > > should try to consider Caty's opinion on style here
since she
> might
> > > > have a
> > > > > > better eye and this proposal here seems to be towards that
> > direction.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > IMO, one very interesting thing to note is the extended
(3.4)
> > version
> > > > and
> > > > > > long term view that we also need to take into account and,
at
> > least to
> > > > me,
> > > > > > that looks really slick.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think we should stick to the original intent of this
Flamingo
> > skin,
> > > > with
> > > > > > the addition of Bootstrap's style, and keep it slick,
> minimalistic
> > and
> > > > to
> > > > > > the point. The users should focus more on the content
instead of
> > the
> > > > UI,
> > > > > > don`t u think?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------
> > > > > > On a related note, If you ask me, I would be in favor of
also
> > removing
> > > > the
> > > > > > labels from "Edit" and "More actions"
and just go with the *all
> too
> > > > > > obvious* "pencil" and "cog" icons.
GMail uses the "cog" icon
> with 0
> > > > > > problems and I kind of trust that their UX army did their
> research
> > and
> > > > > > impact studies for that :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also, on matters of "consistency" we would
achieve the following
> > > > statement:
> > > > > > "Actions have only icons, while entities have an icon
and a label
> > that
> > > > > > displays the entity's name".
> > > > > > - Actions: add, edit, search, more actions, etc.
> > > > > > - Entities (with dropdown menu for actions on the entries):
wiki,
> > > > space,
> > > > > > page, user.
> > > > > > ------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let's keep this skin clean and a pleasure to work
on/with, WDYT?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Eduard
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
<
> > > > > > valicac(a)gmail.com
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've created this proposal
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation
> > > > > > > Please read it and give your opinion on it. The
proposal is
> > based on
> > > > > > > discussed solution, but improves a bit the styling.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you are curious how I reached some of the
proposal's
> > conclusions,
> > > > you
> > > > > > > can see it's iterations
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIter…
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Caty
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > actually one thing we could try is this:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - *Keep the "Add" button where it is
and use it for
> > page-related
> > > > > > > > actions:*
> > > > > > > > - "Add child page"
> > > > > > > > - "Add comment" (as suggested by
Denis)
> > > > > > > > - "Add attachment" (as suggested by
Denis)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - *Add a "Create" button in the top
bar, with 2/3 options:*
> > > > > > > > - "Create page" (TBD)
> > > > > > > > - "Create space"
> > > > > > > > - "Create wiki"
> > > > > > > > - In this case, after clicking "Create"
the user would be
> > presented
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > a page / modal box listing existing instances as
well as
> > available
> > > > > > > > templates
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think this would solve both my issues (having
less-frequent
> > > > actions
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > the same location as a more-frequent one, not
being in the
> > right
> > > > place
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the
"Add" button is
> > easy to
> > > > find
> > > > > > > > where it is right now, why move it?).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > WDYT?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Guillaume
> > > > > > > > ᐧ
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM,
vincent(a)massol.net > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (
> > enygma2002(a)gmail.com
> > > > > > (mailto:
> > > > > > > > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On that note:
> > > > > > > > > > The funny/sad thing to realise is that
we are basing all
> > this
> > > > > > > > discussion
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > the fact that some users did not find
the "Add" button
> > *only
> > > > the
> > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > time* they tried to do something. The
realization is that
> > this
> > > > is
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > those things (idioms[1][2]) that you
learn once and know
> > how to
> > > > > > > easily
> > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > the next 1000x times (like riding a
bike).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The real problem appears when you are
in those "next
> 1000x
> > > > time"
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > find it cumbersome to use (like riding
a bike with no
> > saddle,
> > > > or
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > saddle on backwards :) ). So in both
cases (top or middle
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > page)
> > > > > > > > > once
> > > > > > > > > > you find it once, you will find it
again, however in the
> > > > middle of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > page
> > > > > > > > > > it conflicts too often with the Edit
button and other
> page
> > > > related
> > > > > > > > > actions,
> > > > > > > > > > that it becomes cumbersome to use.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Indeed that’s something I had in mind too.
If you just ask
> to
> > > > add a
> > > > > > > page
> > > > > > > > > and that’s all then you’re not doing a full
test. You’d
> need
> > to
> > > > ask
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > user to:
> > > > > > > > > - add a page
> > > > > > > > > - delete a page
> > > > > > > > > - move a page
> > > > > > > > > - create a space
> > > > > > > > > - etc
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And then only you can draw some conclusion
IMO.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > Eduard
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ----------
> > > > > > > > > > [1]
http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
> > > > > > > > > > [2]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM,
vincent(a)massol.net
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00,
Guillaume Louis-Marie
> > Delhumeau (
> > > > > > > > > > >
gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com))
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I have done the
"test-on-my-wife" thing :)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > She finds it more intuitive
to add a page from the
> > current
> > > > > > page,
> > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > current location, instead of
the "black bar that
> gives
> > the
> > > > > > > > > impression of
> > > > > > > > > > > > not beeing a part of that
page" (that she did not
> > manage to
> > > > > > find
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > > > herself).
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I then explained that the
buttons inside the page
> only
> > > > concern
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > actions
> > > > > > > > > > > > that you can do on that page,
meanwhile adding a new
> > page
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > put
> > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > an other location. She did
not like this logic :)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So with this logic we should
remove the top bar
> > completely
> > > > and
> > > > > > move
> > > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > > actions inside the page, i.e. have
only 1 menu inside
> the
> > > > page.
> > > > > > > > > Because if
> > > > > > > > > > > she couldn’t find the Add button
there she also
> wouldn’t
> > be
> > > > able
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > find
> > > > > > > > > > > all wiki-related actions,
space-related actions and
> more
> > > > > > > importantly
> > > > > > > > > > > **page-related** actions like copy
page, rename page or
> > > > delete
> > > > > > > page…
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Also would be fun to ask your wife
to try using
> > Confluence
> > > > and
> > > > > > see
> > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > > > > fails to create a page there too.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Users' logic and
developer's logic are not the same.
> I
> > > > like the
> > > > > > > > > current
> > > > > > > > > > > > location too, except that we
should propose "create
> > page"
> > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > "create
> > > > > > > > > > > > wiki".
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I really would like to have
some feedback of normal
> > users,
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > the 2
> > > > > > > > > > > > proposals. We, as developers,
are not good at making
> > things
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > look
> > > > > > > > > > > > simple for other people, so
we should not take this
> > > > decision
> > > > > > > alone.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > Guillaume Delhumeau
8 Oct
8 Oct
3:21 p.m.
Hello all,
Guillaume D tallked to me about this so, as any visual issue, I have an
opinion about it too.
I think thhe button should be, at least for now, in the top menu (see under
for the explanation if you want).
Hoewver, var 3 has 2 problems for me:
1. the + button for the add in the top menu is 1/ not consistent with other
menus which have labels and 2/ can be interpreted as a "more menus", like
you'd click on the + to get "hidden" menu items
2. If I have a 1920px screen, what reason in the world would I have to not
want to see the full search input directly? I think a full search input is
better, greyed as proposed in 3.2
I would like something like Var 2, with Add button controlled by color
theme with the possibility to choose for it the same color as the menu, to
"melt" it in the menu (so that it would be less visibile). And a grayed
search box, or responsive so that if the screen is small, it's reduced to
an icon (like in Var 3).
Now, on the placement of the button: I think it's hard to understand how
can Add Space or Add Wiki be next to editing the current page.
Indeed, you can consider that, since the created page is a child page of
the current page, it makes sense to Add a page in the context of the
current page BUT, until rights are inherited on the parent-child relation,
this is a very dangerous logic to highlight to users. Also, you can choose
the space of the new page upon creation, thus creating it "elsewhere" but
the "current context", so it can be considered as a non-context related
action.
Sorry I didn't feedback earlier about this, it seems it's indeed easier
when you see it (or show it to other people). Also it was probably always
surrounded a bit by the whole confusion created for me by the placement of
the edit buttons to the right (I am used to going to the left so it's
always puzzling for me; I'll just get used to it, this is a change I like).
Thanks,
Anca
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 6:53 PM, vincent(a)massol.net <vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
On 3 Oct 2014 at 18:40:50, Jeremie BOUSQUET (jeremie.bousquet(a)gmail.com
(mailto:jeremie.bousquet@gmail.com)) wrote:
"half
2014-10-03 15:57 GMT+02:00 Ecaterina Moraru
(Valica) :
> On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 4:50 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 3 Oct 2014 at 15:33:53, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (
valicac(a)gmail.com
> > (mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:28 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 3 Oct 2014 at 13:05:08, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (
> > valicac(a)gmail.com
> > > > (mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Some notes about the proposal:
> > > > >
> > > > > - I like the 'Add' represented as '+' and after
the
Wiki/Space/Page
> > > > > breadcrumb, because is
somehow consistent with the '+' (More
> > > > applications)
> > > > > from the AppBar. Provides a way to create elements of a
particular
> > type
> > > > in
> > > > > the near vicinity where the elements are displayed.
> > > >
> > > > What I don’t like is that it’s the only menu entry at the top
that
> > > > wouldn’t have any text (just
an icon) and it’s one of the most
> > important
> > > > one.
> > > >
> > >
> > > As I said in the proposal "Well known actions are represented with
> icons,
> > > while we provide text only for user generated entities
> > > (Wiki/Space/Page/User names)”.
> >
> > But I don’t see this anywhere in the current UI: we have “Edit”,
“Add”,
> > “More Actions..” which are all well
known actions...
> >
> > Is that a new rule you’d like to have?
> >
> > If it is, it makes more sense to me to move all to this new rule at
once
> > instead of doing an exception just for
the Add button, don’t you
think
> so?
> >
>
> So yes, is not something existing, it was more of a premise I based my
> design when I did iterations (in order to assure consistency).
> For example, one of the iterations looks like this
>
>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
(where
even Edit and More actions are replaced with only icons) ... but
again these are design ideas, iterations and proposals.
I really like this one, as it's consistent with your premise and not consistent”.
Yes I also like it because it makes the UI a bit less cluttered. What I
don’t like is “half consistent”, i.e. just the “+” without the rest using
long names.
Now I’m not sure if at this stage we’re prepared to make such a larger
jump/change for 6.2.2. This is why I was proposing to move the Add feature
at the top while keeping the “Add” text for now and do what Caty proposes
as the next step. OTOH if everyone agrees with this change right now, I’m
fine with going ahead with it right now too...
Thanks
-Vincent
I understand Vincent's point, but my
"issue" is that the "+" in top menu
doesn't look like an icon, it looks like a '+' character, and could use
same font as the other text on left side (except that it's a bit
thicker).
So it seems half-way between an entity (as
it's almost text) and a well
known action (as it's an icon). This is not the case for the icons on the
right side of top bar, as they clearly don't look like any character you
usually produce with a keyboard (bell, message, magnifying glass).
I don't really like the cog icon (and I never did), because if you don't
know it yet you have no idea what to expect inside (I would except some
administration or configuration stuff, which is not the case).
Of course there are habits, but as a first time user, if I tell you
"please
administrate rights of this page", would you
click on the pencil or on
the
cog ? ;-)
>
>
>
> >
> > > > I’d use a color (the green one looks fine to me to make it
visible)
> for
> > > > now for 6.2.2 and maybe do some usability testing on various
> > variations as
> > > > you did for the other usability tests, in order to gather more
> > feedback and
> > > > have more time to gather it.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I've also iterated on the 'green color' idea, see
> > >
> >
>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
> > >
> >
>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
> > > but I prefer the initial proposal
(with white) since I think the
> contrast
> > > is better and also we keep consistency between elements.
> >
> > I don’t think there needs to be a consistency because we want to draw
> > attention to it which is not the case for the other elements. That
said,
> > using a “+” without text would be a
consistency issue since it’s the
only
> > one like this...
> >
> > Anyway, I don’t want to fight too long on this because I’d like us to
> move
> > forward so if others are ok to use just a “+” with the same color as
the
> > other menus, then I’m fine (even though
I don’t like it). BTW I hope
it’s
> > not too small and can be clicked on a
mobile ;)
> >
>
> Actually I would need to make a proposal also for the mobile version,
since
> there things are a bit messed up (because of
the Search change) and we
> might need to provide a custom order.
>
> Thanks,
> Caty
>
>
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> > > > > - Although I know there will be some initial findability
issues for
> > the
> > > > > 'Add', after the user founds it I don't think it
will have
problems
> > > > finding
> > > > > it again. We can improve the findability by finally providing
an
> > > > > Introductory Wizard.
Except for the initial moments when you
learn
> > > > XWiki, I
> > > > > don't see the point of having a very distinctive style for
'Add'
> and
> > I
> > > > > would prefer to go on the consistent/integrated with the other
> navbar
> > > > > elements direction.
> > > > >
> > > > > - The same comment about a distinctive style for
'Search'. IMO
> > 'Search'
> > > > > should look integrated in the .navbar.
> > > > >
> > > > > - I dislike the idea of having multiple 'Add' buttons.
Also the
> 'Add
> > -
> > > > > Comment to page' and 'Add - Attachment to page' are
part of the
> > Colibri
> > > > > skin, but IMO were 'close to never' used. I remember a
bug on
them
> > that
> > > > > made them unusable and we discovered it after some years or
> > something.
> > > > Also
> > > > > I don't think we should provide buttons for all the
functionality
> we
> > can
> > > > > think of, but leave them be created from their context. I
prefer
> > having
> > > > > buttons just for the generic and base concepts of XWiki (in
the try
> > of
> > > > > keeping it minimal and simple).
> > > > >
> > > > > - We are kind of going a bit too crazy about brainstorming and
> > ideas. The
> > > > > only conclusion we need to reach is if for Flamingo we move the
> > button
> > > > back
> > > > > top.
> > > >
> > > > Yes I agree completely with this. We shouldn’t mix everything
right
> > now or
> > > > we won’t progress.
> > > >
> > > > The only other thing that we may want to have in 6.2.2 too is the
> > removal
> > > > of the 2 part-buttons at the top and the introduction of the “Go
to…”
> > for
> > > > navigation.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I've created http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11166 and
> > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11167
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Caty
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The rest is fine to discuss and tune for 6.3+ IMO.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Vincent
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Caty
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Eduard Moraru wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Big +1 for Var3 for the simple fact that it looks like a
> > > > "holistic"/global
> > > > > > approach that does not only focus on a specific element,
like the
> > "Add"
> > > > > > button and currently falls into the mistake of making it a
bright
> > shiny
> > > > > > beacon to misguided users, resulting in something that is
overall
> > > > > > disturbing to the
eye. Same can be said about the "Search"
> element,
> > > > since
> > > > > > it now reduces the heavy contrast of both the search input
> (bright
> > > > white on
> > > > > > dark background) and its search button (bright colored blue
on
> dark
> > > > > > background).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > About the Search button (re: Jeremie): Because it is the
first
> > element
> > > > in
> > > > > > its group, it will show to the left and no other elements
will be
> > > > > > disturbed, so the
transition will be nice for users.
Basically
> the
> > > > expand
> > > > > > search button (the magnifying glass) becomes a button once
you
> > expand
> > > > it,
> > > > > > so there should be no flicker or anything like that.
> > > > > > - As an alternative, if we really are against
> > > > > > transitions/animations/expandable elements/etc, we could
just
> > present
> > > > the
> > > > > > search as directly expanded (classic way), but still keep
the
> > darker
> > > > input
> > > > > > color to avoid the "kitch" effect described above
due to high
> > > > contrasts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > About the + (Add) button, IMO, the only thing we could do
more if
> > we
> > > > really
> > > > > > want to emphasize it in an *elegant* fashion, would be to
make
> the
> > +
> > > > sign
> > > > > > itself green, or with some green border, whatever. Whatever
we
> do,
> > we
> > > > > > should try to consider Caty's opinion on style here
since she
> might
> > > > have a
> > > > > > better eye and this proposal here seems to be towards that
> > direction.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > IMO, one very interesting thing to note is the extended
(3.4)
> > version
> > > > and
> > > > > > long term view that we also need to take into account and,
at
> > least to
> > > > me,
> > > > > > that looks really slick.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think we should stick to the original intent of this
Flamingo
> > skin,
> > > > with
> > > > > > the addition of Bootstrap's style, and keep it slick,
> minimalistic
> > and
> > > > to
> > > > > > the point. The users should focus more on the content
instead of
> > the
> > > > UI,
> > > > > > don`t u think?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------
> > > > > > On a related note, If you ask me, I would be in favor of
also
> > removing
> > > > the
> > > > > > labels from "Edit" and "More actions"
and just go with the
*all
> too
> > > > > > obvious* "pencil" and "cog" icons.
GMail uses the "cog" icon
> with 0
> > > > > > problems and I kind of trust that their UX army did their
> research
> > and
> > > > > > impact studies for that :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also, on matters of "consistency" we would
achieve the
following
> > > > statement:
> > > > > > "Actions have only icons, while entities have an icon
and a
label
> > that
> > > > > > displays the entity's name".
> > > > > > - Actions: add, edit, search, more actions, etc.
> > > > > > - Entities (with dropdown menu for actions on the entries):
wiki,
> > > > space,
> > > > > > page, user.
> > > > > > ------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let's keep this skin clean and a pleasure to work
on/with,
WDYT?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Eduard
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
<
> > > > > > valicac(a)gmail.com
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've created this proposal
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> >
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation
> > > > > > > > Please read it and give your opinion on it. The
proposal is
> > > based on
> > > > > > > > discussed solution, but improves a bit the
styling.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you are curious how I reached some of the
proposal's
> > > conclusions,
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > can see it's iterations
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> >
>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIter…
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Caty
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > actually one thing we could try is this:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - *Keep the "Add" button where it is
and use it for
> > page-related
> > > > > > > > actions:*
> > > > > > > > - "Add child page"
> > > > > > > > - "Add comment" (as suggested by
Denis)
> > > > > > > > - "Add attachment" (as suggested by
Denis)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - *Add a "Create" button in the top
bar, with 2/3
options:*
> > > > > > > > -
"Create page" (TBD)
> > > > > > > > - "Create space"
> > > > > > > > - "Create wiki"
> > > > > > > > - In this case, after clicking "Create"
the user would be
> > presented
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > a page / modal box listing existing instances as
well as
> > available
> > > > > > > > templates
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think this would solve both my issues (having
less-frequent
> > > > actions
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > the same location as a more-frequent one, not
being in
the
> > right
> > > > place
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the
"Add" button
is
> > easy to
> > > > find
> > > > > > > > where it is right now, why move it?).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > WDYT?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Guillaume
> > > > > > > > ᐧ
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM,
vincent(a)massol.net > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (
> > enygma2002(a)gmail.com
> > > > > > (mailto:
> > > > > > > > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On that note:
> > > > > > > > > > The funny/sad thing to realise is that
we are basing
all
> > this
> > > > > > > > discussion
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > the fact that some users did not find
the "Add"
button
> > *only
> > > > the
> > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > time* they tried to do something. The
realization is
that
> > this
> > > > is
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > those things (idioms[1][2]) that you
learn once and
know
> > how to
> > > > > > > easily
> > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > the next 1000x times (like riding a
bike).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The real problem appears when you are
in those "next
> 1000x
> > > > time"
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > find it cumbersome to use (like riding
a bike with no
> > saddle,
> > > > or
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > saddle on backwards :) ). So in both
cases (top or
middle
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > page)
> > > > > > > > > once
> > > > > > > > > > you find it once, you will find it
again, however in
the
> > > > middle of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > page
> > > > > > > > > > it conflicts too often with the Edit
button and other
> page
> > > > related
> > > > > > > > > actions,
> > > > > > > > > > that it becomes cumbersome to use.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Indeed that’s something I had in mind too.
If you just
ask
> to
> > > > add a
> > > > > > > page
> > > > > > > > > and that’s all then you’re not doing a full
test. You’d
> need
> > to
> > > > ask
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > user to:
> > > > > > > > > - add a page
> > > > > > > > > - delete a page
> > > > > > > > > - move a page
> > > > > > > > > - create a space
> > > > > > > > > - etc
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And then only you can draw some conclusion
IMO.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > Eduard
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ----------
> > > > > > > > > > [1]
http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
> > > > > > > > > > [2]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> >
https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
> > > > > > > > >
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM,
vincent(a)massol.net
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00,
Guillaume Louis-Marie
> > Delhumeau (
> > > > > > > > > > >
gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com))
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I have done the
"test-on-my-wife" thing :)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > She finds it more intuitive
to add a page from
the
> > current
> > > > > > page,
> > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > current location, instead of
the "black bar that
> gives
> > the
> > > > > > > > > impression of
> > > > > > > > > > > > not beeing a part of that
page" (that she did not
> > manage to
> > > > > > find
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > > > herself).
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I then explained that the
buttons inside the page
> only
> > > > concern
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > actions
> > > > > > > > > > > > that you can do on that page,
meanwhile adding a
new
> > page
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > put
> > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > an other location. She did
not like this logic :)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So with this logic we should
remove the top bar
> > completely
> > > > and
> > > > > > move
> > > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > > actions inside the page, i.e. have
only 1 menu
inside
> the
> > > > page.
> > > > > > > > > Because if
> > > > > > > > > > > she couldn’t find the Add button
there she also
> wouldn’t
> > be
> > > > able
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > find
> > > > > > > > > > > all wiki-related actions,
space-related actions and
> more
> > > > > > > importantly
> > > > > > > > > > > **page-related** actions like copy
page, rename
page or
> > > > delete
> > > > > > > page…
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Also would be fun to ask your wife
to try using
> > Confluence
> > > > and
> > > > > > see
> > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > > > > fails to create a page there too.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Users' logic and
developer's logic are not the
same.
> I
> > > > like the
> > > > > > > > > current
> > > > > > > > > > > > location too, except that we
should propose
"create
> > page"
> > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > "create
> > > > > > > > > > > > wiki".
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I really would like to have
some feedback of
normal
> > users,
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > the 2
> > > > > > > > > > > > proposals. We, as developers,
are not good at
making
> > things
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > look
> > > > > > > > > > > > simple for other people, so
we should not take
this
> > > > decision
> > > > > > > alone.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > Guillaume Delhumeau
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
6:01 p.m.
I'm going to commit http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11167 to master and
stable-6.2.x. With the green button on the top (you can see the
screenshots).
It seems important to have this in 6.2.2, in order to not having users used
to the in-page location.
We can debate about if we prefer a black background, not having a button
but an element like Wiki/Space/Page etc... and I hope we can reach to an
agreement for 6.3.
I hope you like it.
Thanks,
--
Guillaume Delhumeau (gdelhumeau(a)xwiki.com)
Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
Committer on the XWiki.org project
2 Oct
2 Oct
9:10 p.m.
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 6:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
Hi,
actually one thing we could try is this:
- *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for page-related
actions:*
- "Add child page"
- "Add comment" (as suggested by Denis)
- "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis)
- *Add a "Create" button in the top bar, with 2/3 options:*
- "Create page" (TBD)
- "Create space"
- "Create wiki"
- In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would be presented with
a page / modal box listing existing instances as well as available
templates
I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent actions in
the same location as a more-frequent one, not being in the right place on
the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the "Add" button is easy to find
where it is right now, why move it?).
WDYT?
Big +1 for me. I am convince we need "in context" and "out of
context"
operation to be separated.
Guillaume
ᐧ
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net <vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
all
the
2
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
--
Denis Gervalle
SOFTEC sa - CEO
On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com(mailto:
enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> On that note:
> The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing all this
discussion
on
> the fact that some users did not find the "Add" button *only the first
> time* they tried to do something. The realization is that this is one
of
> those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn
once and know how to easily
do
> the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
>
> The real problem appears when you are in those "next 1000x time" and
you
> find it cumbersome to use (like riding a
bike with no saddle, or with
the
saddle on
backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or middle of the page)
once
you find it once, you will find it again, however
in the middle of the
page
it conflicts too often with the Edit button and
other page related
actions,
that it becomes cumbersome to use.
Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just ask to add a page
and that’s all then you’re not doing a full test. You’d need to ask the
user to:
- add a page
- delete a page
- move a page
- create a space
- etc
And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
Thanks
-Vincent
Thanks,
Eduard
----------
[1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
[2]
https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
wrote:
>
>
> On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau (
> gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
>
> > Hi.
> >
> > I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :)
> >
> > She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the current page, so
in
> the
> > current location, instead of the "black bar that gives the
impression of
> > not beeing a part of that page"
(that she did not manage to find by
> > herself).
> >
> > I then explained that the buttons inside the page only concern the
> actions
> > that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a new page should be
put
> > in
> > > an other location. She did not like this logic :)
> >
> > So with this logic we should remove the top bar completely and move >
actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu inside the page.
Because if
> she couldn’t find the Add button there she
also wouldn’t be able to
find
> all wiki-related actions, space-related
actions and more importantly
> **page-related** actions like copy page, rename page or delete page…
>
> Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using Confluence and see if
she
> fails to create a page there too.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > Users' logic and developer's logic are not the same. I like the
current
> > location too, except that we should
propose "create page" before
"create
> > > wiki".
> > >
> > > I really would like to have some feedback of normal users, with > > > proposals. We, as developers, are
not good at making things that
look
> >
simple for other people, so we should not take this decision alone.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > --
> > Guillaume Delhumeau
3 Oct
3 Oct
1:19 a.m.
On 2 Oct 2014 at 21:11:11, Denis Gervalle (dgl@softec.lu(mailto:dgl@softec.lu)) wrote:
I’m a bit less convinced than you Denis that have 2 “Add” actions is a good thing. Don’t
you think it could be confusing for the user and I don’t think it’s very clear when to use
one or another. And even more so since the page that appears when you click them is the
same one in both cases…
ATM I still prefer having a single Add/Create button at the top by far
Thanks
-Vincent
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 6:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> actually one thing we could try is this:
>
> - *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for page-related
> actions:*
This is not fully true. It’s NOT about page-related actions at all. It’s about page
**content** actions.
Page-related actions are in the top level menus with “Delete page”, “rename page”, “move
page”. So it makes sense to have “Create child page” in there too.
> - "Add child page”
How would it look differently than the one at the top since both have the current page as
the default parent?
> - "Add comment" (as suggested by
Denis)
> - "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis)
The show links in the More actions menu also allow to add comments/attachments and so does
the extradoc tabs at the bottom of the page. I’m wondering if it’s not confusing to have
so many ways of doing the same thing.
- *Add a
"Create" button in the top bar, with 2/3 options:*
- "Create page" (TBD)
- "Create space"
- "Create wiki"
- In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would be presented with
a page / modal box listing existing instances as well as available
templates
I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent actions in
the same location as a more-frequent one, not being in the right place on
the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the "Add" button is easy to find
where it is right now, why move it?).
WDYT?
Big +1 for me. I am convince we need "in context" and "out of
context"
operation to be separated. > Guillaume
> ᐧ
>
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com(mailto:
> > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> >
> > > On that note:
> > > The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing all this
> discussion
> > on
> > > the fact that some users did not find the "Add" button *only the
first
> > > time* they tried to do something. The realization is that this is one
> of
> > > those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn once and know how to easily
> do
> > > the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
> > >
> > > The real problem appears when you are in those "next 1000x time"
and
> you
> > > find it cumbersome to use (like riding a bike with no saddle, or with
> the
> > > saddle on backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or middle of the page)
> > once
> > > you find it once, you will find it again, however in the middle of the
> > page
> > > it conflicts too often with the Edit button and other page related
> > actions,
> > > that it becomes cumbersome to use.
> >
> > Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just ask to add a page
> > and that’s all then you’re not doing a full test. You’d need to ask the
> > user to:
> > - add a page
> > - delete a page
> > - move a page
> > - create a space
> > - etc
> >
> > And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > [1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
> > > [2]
> > https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau (
> > > > gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :)
> > > > >
> > > > > She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the current page,
so
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > current location, instead of the "black bar that gives the
> > impression of
> > > > > not beeing a part of that page" (that she did not manage to
find by
> > > > > herself).
> > > > >
> > > > > I then explained that the buttons inside the page only concern
the
> > > > actions
> > > > > that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a new page should
be
> > put
> > > > in
> > > > > an other location. She did not like this logic :)
> > > >
> > > > So with this logic we should remove the top bar completely and move
> all
> > > > actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu inside the page.
> > Because if
> > > > she couldn’t find the Add button there she also wouldn’t be able to
> > find
> > > > all wiki-related actions, space-related actions and more importantly
> > > > **page-related** actions like copy page, rename page or delete page…
> > > >
> > > > Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using Confluence and see
if
> > she
> > > > fails to create a page there too.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Vincent
> > > >
> > > > > Users' logic and developer's logic are not the same. I
like the
> > current
> > > > > location too, except that we should propose "create
page" before
> > "create
> > > > > wiki".
> > > > >
> > > > > I really would like to have some feedback of normal users, with
> the 2
> > > > > proposals. We, as developers, are not good at making things
that
> look
> > > > > simple for other people, so we should not take this decision
alone.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Guillaume Delhumeau
9:48 a.m.
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:19 AM, vincent(a)massol.net <vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
By not implicitly choose a parent, but proposing to choose one in addition
to the name. So this the create feature, no matter where I am, I want
something new.
What I propose is different Vincent, it allow quickly adding comments,
attachment and more if affinity, using a modal without scrolling (BTW, I
also find annoying these buttons gets out of sight when scrolling) and
without showing other object of the same nature (this is only an add
feature). In regards to proposing the same feature from many different
places, if we stay consistent in naming those function, the user will see
more benefit than confusion. Actually, the duplication of the extradoc and
the independent pages for the same feature is more confusing. The link you
mention are also not very easy, because they load a new page (BTW, on those
pages the link to go back to content is buried into the more option menu,
not very intuitive).
I’m a bit less convinced than you Denis that have 2 “Add” actions is a
good thing. Don’t you think it could be confusing for the user and I don’t
think it’s very clear when to use one or another. And even more so since
the page that appears when you click them is the same one in both cases…
On 2 Oct 2014 at 21:11:11, Denis Gervalle (dgl(a)softec.lu(mailto:
dgl(a)softec.lu)) wrote:
This is true, but not necessarily an issue here, it could be discussed.
Basically, it is about adding more content to that content. It does not
prevent the Page menu to contains the same option BTW. Giving user multiple
path to the same action is not necessarily bad, it allow each user to use
the tool with its own way of thinking.
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 6:59 PM, Guillaume
Lerouge
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> actually one thing we could try is this:
>
> - *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for page-related
> actions:*
This is not fully true. It’s NOT about page-related actions at all. It’s
about page **content** actions.
Page-related actions are in the top level menus with “Delete page”,
“rename page”, “move page”. So it makes sense to have “Create child page”
in there too.
> - "Add child page”
How would it look differently than the one at the top since both have the
current page as the default parent?
> - "Add comment" (as suggested by
Denis)
> - "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis)
The show links in the More actions menu also allow to add
comments/attachments and so does the extradoc tabs at the bottom of the
page. I’m wondering if it’s not confusing to have so many ways of doing the
same thing.
> - *Add a "Create" button in the
top bar, with 2/3 options:*
> - "Create page" (TBD)
> - "Create space"
> - "Create wiki"
> - In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would be presented
with
> a page / modal box listing existing
instances as well as available
> templates
>
> I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent actions
in
> the same location as a more-frequent one,
not being in the right place
on
the page)
and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the "Add" button is easy to find
where it is right now, why move it?).
WDYT?
Big +1 for me. I am convince we need "in context" and "out of
context"
operation to be separated. ATM I still prefer having a single Add/Create button
at the top by far
Actually this will not be the case, but if the feeling is that adding a
page from the content is confusing, we will removed it. This does remove
the need for a button to add stuff to content. As said earlier, we will
also need to allow applications to hook on these buttons. On the top bar
one to add more options for creating content out of context, and on the
content one to add new objects to the current page. So even if you get rid
of the content Add, my felling is that it will come back soon for
application purposes anyway.
Thanks
-Vincent
--
Denis Gervalle
SOFTEC sa - CEO
> Guillaume
> ᐧ
>
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com
(mailto:
> > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> >
> > > On that note:
> > > The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing all this
> discussion
> > on
> > > the fact that some users did not find the "Add" button *only the
first
> > > time* they tried to do something.
The realization is that this is
one
> of
> > > those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn once and know how to
easily
> do
> > > the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
> > >
> > > The real problem appears when you are in those "next 1000x time"
and
> you
> > > find it cumbersome to use (like riding a bike with no saddle, or
with
> the
> > > saddle on backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or middle of the
page)
> > once
> > > you find it once, you will find it again, however in the middle of
the
> > page
> > > it conflicts too often with the Edit button and other page related
> > actions,
> > > that it becomes cumbersome to use.
> >
> > Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just ask to add a
page
> > and that’s all then you’re not doing a
full test. You’d need to ask
the
> > user to:
> > - add a page
> > - delete a page
> > - move a page
> > - create a space
> > - etc
> >
> > And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > [1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
> > > [2]
> >
https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau (
> > > > gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :)
> > > > >
> > > > > She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the current
page, so
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > current location, instead of the "black bar that gives the
> > impression of
> > > > > not beeing a part of that page" (that she did not manage to
find by
> > > > > herself).
> > > > >
> > > > > I then explained that the buttons inside the page only concern
the
> > > > actions
> > > > > that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a new page
should be
> > put
> > > > in
> > > > > an other location. She did not like this logic :)
> > > >
> > > > So with this logic we should remove the top bar completely and
move
> all
> > > > actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu inside the page.
> > Because if
> > > > she couldn’t find the Add button there she also wouldn’t be able
to
> > find
> > > > all wiki-related actions, space-related actions and more
importantly
> > > > **page-related** actions like
copy page, rename page or delete
page…
> > > >
> > > > Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using Confluence and
see if
> > she
> > > > fails to create a page there too.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Vincent
> > > >
> > > > > Users' logic and developer's logic are not the same. I
like the
> > current
> > > > > location too, except that we should propose "create
page"
before
> > "create
> > > > > wiki".
> > > > >
> > > > > I really would like to have some feedback of normal users, with
> the 2
> > > > > proposals. We, as developers, are not good at making things
that
> look
> > > > > simple for other people, so we should not take this decision
alone.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Guillaume Delhumeau
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
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3631
days inactive
3637
days old
22 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
Anca Luca -
Denis Gervalle -
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) -
Eduard Moraru -
Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau -
Guillaume Lerouge -
Jeremie BOUSQUET -
vincent＠massol.net